101 | Critical Thinking 101 (Curiosity with Discipline)

What if the bravest move you can make in a polarized world where everyone is picking a 'team' is refuse to play the game, and start asking questions? What if the true rebellion is to step out of the binary fight and say, 'Okay, but what’s really true here? What’s being missed? What’s the actual problem?'

Let's talk about the raw reality of tensions over politics and the relief we found after stepping away from party identity. We unpack how to rebuild real dialogue: regulate your nervous system, slow your reaction, and practice intellectual humility. The payoff isn’t abstract. It’s fewer blown-up group chats, more honest relationships, and a mind that can hold nuance without fracturing.

We break down critical thinking in practical terms: curiosity with discipline. You’ll hear why emotions hijack logic, how information overload and algorithms create echo chambers, and why group loyalty often beats truth unless we consciously choose otherwise. We share candid stories, including catching viral misinformation mid-share and what it took to become a safe place for disagreement. We also examine the less discussed factors that dim clarity: chronic stress, lack of sleep, and how certain medications or mental health states can blunt curiosity and slow reasoning.

Then we get tactical. A cheat sheet for critical thinking. 'How do I know this?' 'Who benefits if I believe it?' 'What would change my mind?' Plus ways to diversify sources without burning out. We talk incentives behind research, following the money, and spotting logical fallacies so you can see rhetorical tricks in real time. Most of all, we normalize changing your mind. That’s not weakness, it’s growth. We close by naming beliefs we’ve outgrown and tease a part two: a deep dive on propaganda’s history and psychology, and how to stay immune.

Real courage isn't doubling down on a side. It's being curious when everyone else is being loud.

If this resonates, tap follow, share with a friend who craves nuance, and join our Patreon where you can join the chat and leave one belief you’ve updated lately. Your reflection might be the bridge someone else needs.

https://www.patreon.com/c/seeyouontheotherside

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Chapters

• 0:00 Family Fractures Over Politics
• 3:40 Leaving Party Identity Behind
• 13:00 Bridge Building And Nuance
• 22:10 Safe Conversations And Openness
• 29:50 Launching The Rabbit Holes Series
• 35:20 Defining Critical Thinking
• 46:10 Emotions Versus Reason
• 56:20 Algorithms, Overload, And Echo Chambers
• 1:09:00 Groupthink, Belonging, And Being Othered
• 1:21:40 Health, Exhaustion, And Discernment
• 1:33:00 Medication, Dopamine, And Numbing
• 1:44:40 Follow The Money And Bad Science

Transcript

SPEAKER_02: 0:31

I don't know why I end up on threads because it's not really You love a thread. It shows up on my Instagram algorithm and then I get sucked into reading it. Yeah. This one in particular, this morning that I saved. She said, I am this close to unfriending my older sister. She was quiet about her political stance until Charlie Kirk died. And then she showed her true colors and they clash with mine. Then she and my other sister laughed about the No Kings rally, which I attended. They think that I'm a freak. Trump destroys more than buildings. He wrecks families. Fuck him. And the comment section is like, uh, you're wrecking your family because you can't just agree to disagree. Imagine turning against your own flesh and blood in order to feel somehow justified in your political stance. Um, blah, blah, blah, blah. This says, my sister's opinions clash with mine. I'm this close to unfriending her. Trump wrecks families, but look at that. Like, why are you blaming that on Trump?

SPEAKER_00: 1:33

Like, clearly, you're the one with the issue. Well, and again, I I think that there is like something to be said about maybe a level of narcissism that has come with this political polarization and and divide because it's like, I'm right, you're wrong, I'm not gonna talk to you, I'm gonna exile you. You're a bad person now. I've known you for 20 years, you've been my sister. Right. Like we've loved each other, you know me like to my core, but now I can't talk to you. And it's again being so your fra your ego being so fragile that you're adamant that you're so right. And maybe if more people on all sides could be like, you know what? I might not be right on everything, and my side might not be right on everything. And um, maybe I shouldn't wrap my identity up with this political affiliation. Let's think about the fact that uh maybe both sides are super corrupt and evil. And um yeah, I shouldn't be so tied with that.

SPEAKER_02: 2:42

I think it's refreshing to walk away and say I affiliate with no one. And I think it's an assumption that when we talked about are we starting?

SPEAKER_00: 2:53

Yes, like start.

SPEAKER_02: 2:54

I think it's an assumption like an assumption that people may maybe they did, maybe they didn't when our last few episodes came out. That like now that we have spoken out about leaving the Democratic Party, they assume we are now the other the other. Yes, and that's kind of where I want to lead this conversation today, because there aren't just two options. This is not a black and white thing, and it is like incredibly refreshing to step out from both sides and to see the hypocrisy on both sides, to see the lunacy on both sides. But and I say this with tough love, but from where I'm standing, it seems like it's more one side than the other. Is that bad to say?

SPEAKER_00: 3:56

No, I don't think it's bad to say at all. And I think it's on both. I think I think that where we're coming from is we were that side, and I think that's why we're talking about it because we experienced these things. Is I used to be you. I used to be you. I used to think that I was right and I was a good person, and if you voted differently, not only were you wrong, you were now a bad person, and I judged you and I unfriended you and I did all these things. And again, I said it in a previous episode. It took a mushroom journey to be like, oh my God, I'm the problem. And oh my God, I don't know as much as I thought I did. And oh my gosh, my black and white thinking, yeah, that was like a trauma response that um maybe helped protect me at a time, but it wasn't, it was doing me a disservice in present day and to unlearn these things. And so it's like, even when I speak out about the Democratic Party and people are like, oh my gosh, well, now you're the other and now you're a Trumper. And I'm like, yeah, you can try to use that, but my identity is not is not affiliated with either side. I'm able to like be able to point out and see what I don't like and the good things about both. So like you're trying to insult me, but it's not an insult. Right. I'm in the middle and I think we need we need more of that. We need more of the bridge builders.

SPEAKER_02: 5:23

Well, I also think that you and I are very sure of who we are. That too. So what you think about where I stand doesn't bother me.

SPEAKER_00: 5:32

Yeah, and you don't know me because we are not willing to have a conversation about it. Now I now if you're wanting to have a conversation about it and have some like thoughtful dialogue and you are able to not just like I don't like talking to people where no matter what I say, no matter what is presented to them, they're not changing their mind. They're not being able, they're not able to hear like different points or different perspectives. Like they're not like nuance. They can't hold nuance. It's this is what I believe. They're very disregulated, tied to. This is bad. I'm good, you know. It's impossible. It's impossible to have a conversation. I've like kind of tried. I do try to like I do talk to people who are very on the right and very on the left, and I try to be like the devil's advocate. So if I'm talking to somebody on the left, they automatically assume that I'm a Republican because I'm trying to like get them to maybe get out of that echo chamber or their binary thinking. But I also do the same thing if I'm talking to somebody on the right too. Like, and there are things that I don't agree with on that, because it's like there's there's gotta be the people in the middle who are holding this shit up because it's going so far the other way. And I've I I do think that people who are in the middle get kind of hated on the most because the people who are very on the right and very on the left, they just don't talk to each other, they just avoid each other. And so it's like to me, I feel like it's like the people in the middle who are like, well, you know, have you got a little bit of a little bit of a little bit shot from both sides?

SPEAKER_02: 7:08

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 7:08

Have you thought about this on your side? Like you guys are getting a little, well, it's going a little too far. The marker keeps moving, and some people aren't okay with it. And I think that's okay to have a valid discussion about that and be able to hear what that person has to say, and then you know, you're on this side and you're, you know, hooting and hollering a little bit too loud. And have you ever thought about this perspective?

SPEAKER_02: 7:29

Have you noticed since we have kind of stepped away from identity politics? Have you noticed that sometimes you can feel who is willing and capable of having a conversation versus someone who isn't based on your other conversations?

SPEAKER_00: 7:53

Oh my God, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02: 7:54

So I think first I want to talk about somebody who reached out to us um about a previous episode and something that we said. And I don't want to go into details, but she's been a listener for a long time and and and we've had multiple conversations with her. Like, we love this person. I don't want to throw her name out there because this is a personal story. She wrote us and she said, I listened to what you said, and I kind of have a different perspective. Are you open to hearing it? We're like, Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 8:29

And I love when a conversation starts out. Absolutely. Because I'm like, what are you gonna drop? And I I I want to hear what you're you have to say.

SPEAKER_02: 8:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 8:38

Because I'm I'm open to changing my mind.

SPEAKER_02: 8:40

I'm open to it, and again, maybe I'll get her permission one day to like maybe talk about her perspective and what it was on. But I think we had a very good back and forth dialogue because she gave this different perspective. And I was like, you know what? Actually, I didn't think about that. And I think that that should be a conversation that is had when that specific thing is brought up because there is nuance there. This isn't a black and white situation. There are situations where the context matters, where it's not as easy as the answer isn't as obvious to some people. But what I'm saying is she was like scared to say that to us. Yeah. And she said that. And she was like, thank you for being a safe place for me to open up. You guys have helped me be able to talk about this in a different way. She bought the third perspective book so she could learn how to speak up more. I love that. Um, and I was like, this was such a productive conversation. I learned something in it because there was like a back and forth. But that's what I mean. Like putting feelers out and knowing who is safe to talk to and who isn't. And I hope, I really hope that our listeners know that we are a safe place and we are open to hearing other opinions and other sides of things. Like, I feel like if anything, we've proven that like throughout the years that we're kind of open to anything.

SPEAKER_00: 10:23

And also, like if there is a listener who is listening to us and you say something or we say something and it's it's you don't agree with it, you think it's wrong, and you have like you're willing to have a valid discussion of of why, um, and pr present information. We do not claim to be experts. We'll hear it. Like we'll hear it.

SPEAKER_02: 10:45

Sem tents will change our minds. Yeah. We've done that a lot. Yeah. Yeah. So we're we're willing to have conversations and and we're willing to change our minds because isn't that kind of what life is about is being presented with new information and maybe under having a different walking away with a different understanding and knowing that it's not always it's not always wrong or right or good or evil or black or white. It there's so much more.

SPEAKER_00: 11:14

Well, and I think we're in this time where people are really scared to talk, and I think that's kind of why we're doing and doing all of these episodes that we are doing, because if we feel like it's just kind of a necessary conversation right now. Um not slowing down. Yeah, and hopefully, hopefully more people by doing this, more people can be more open to being able to have discussion with people that they think are wrong or people that they highly disagree with. And maybe, you know, out of that discussion, there can be some common ground. Doesn't necessarily mean you have to end and agree on everything, but maybe there can, again, there can be things where you can find some commonality in it, or um walk away from the conversation. You're like, oh, I learned something, or maybe that changed my perspective a little bit, or something.

SPEAKER_02: 12:06

Or maybe you can walk away knowing that like agreeing to disagree, but still having respect for the other person. I think that this would be like really good for people who are struggling with their friendships or family relationships right now.

SPEAKER_00: 12:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 12:18

I and and I really mean what I say when I say like we're only how many months into this presidency? 10 months, almost 11, 11 months, and we have three more years of this shit, and it has not slowed down, and it has only seemed to have gotten worse politically. So I think that now is a great time for everybody to learn how to regulate, go touch some grass, but also how to have these conversations. I think that that's kind of what we want to do is like teach people how to be open to having these conversations. With that being said, I have notes.

SPEAKER_00: 14:06

Y'all, Leah's gone down a rabbit hole today. And you want to know what I like about this doing just an episode with you and I on Riverside. I feel like we're doing kind of a Marco Polo, but it's like together. We're like on FaceTime, Bestie. That is what this feels like. So I'm excited for this episode.

SPEAKER_02: 14:22

I am so excited about this now. Yeah, we're trying a different way to make editing a little bit easier on our end. And I think this is it. This is gonna work really well. I think so. Okay, so I have two rabbit holes. One is more about like, I think one is good for everybody. It's about critical thinking, what it is, how to strengthen it. And then the other one, I want to put it in a series called rabbit holes. Because as I was taking notes and studying critical thinking, and I've never done this for an episode before, by the way. Like, I don't think either one of us have ever put this much effort into studying for an episode.

SPEAKER_00: 15:08

Yeah, we are both going down some rabbit holes.

SPEAKER_02: 15:12

You picked one, I picked one, this is mine. Welcome.

SPEAKER_00: 15:15

Also, if if while we do this series, if there are rabbit holes that you want us to go down that you you're fascinated about, uh message us and let us know because we have been fascinated by these rabbit holes we were coming down. It it is like this is where I'm like excited. I was never a great student because I just didn't give a fuck about like I don't want to write a paper on that shit. Yeah. Where now I'm like, holy shit, this is crazy.

SPEAKER_02: 15:45

Yeah. So we want to know what rabbit holes you guys think we should go down. We don't want to do this often because it's, I'm not kidding you. I've like spent weeks taking notes and preparing for this. But as I was going down this critical thinking rabbit hole, I came across some stuff about propaganda and the history of it. And I'm going to put that in a separate episode, and that's where we're going to put it under rabbit holes. Because this, I don't necessarily consider the critical thinking stuff a rabbit hole. It just led me into a hole.

SPEAKER_00: 16:16

I love a hole.

SPEAKER_02: 16:17

I love absolutely fun. But I also want to do a conspiracy theory section. And I think that's different than rabbit holes because these are things that like not you can't necessarily prove them yet. But I love a good conspiracy theory.

SPEAKER_00: 16:37

Yeah, usually conspiracy theories, they're right. They're just too early.

SPEAKER_02: 16:41

Just too early. Like, what's the have you heard that? What's the difference between the conspiracy theory and the truth? What? About six months to a year.

SPEAKER_00: 16:50

See, exactly.

SPEAKER_02: 16:52

Oh, God. Okay. Okay. So critical thinking. Let's talk about it because I think we're struggling as a society in this area. Critical thinking, and I even though I have notes, Christine, like I want you to stop me and say whatever you think and anything that's like valid. All right. So like don't let me just like read off my notes. Well, I got you. Okay. Critical thinking is the ability to question, analyze, interpret, and evaluate information to make reasoned judgments. It involves breaking down complex information, identifying assumptions, and considering different perspectives to arrive at a well-informed conclusion. That is like the definition of critical thinking. It is using your brain on purpose, not just believing something because someone said it, but actually questioning and analyzing it and looking for evidence before deciding what you believe to be true. So if you are like a critical thinker, you are the person who looks at the facts. You are aware of your own biases. Um, you ask, how do I know this information? And you're open to changing your mind if new information comes along.

SPEAKER_00: 18:11

I think that's a big one.

SPEAKER_02: 18:12

That is a big one. And I am guilty of the opposite of critical thinking. I think we all are and have been, and I still catch myself sometimes. But the opposite of it, and this is like a nice way of saying it, is uncritical thinking or blind acceptance. Now, there are some other words that could go under this category, but I feel like they're kind of mean. But like naive and um gullible and ignorant? Ignorant is one. And I don't like those words. And I think that as soon as you attach negative connotation to something, you get defensive. So I don't want to call people naive. I don't want to call them ignorant. I think, like, hey, maybe you should um work on your critical thinking.

SPEAKER_00: 19:10

Oh, you you think that would hit better if you said that to somebody? So much nicer.

SPEAKER_02: 19:15

Yeah, I'm the golden retriever here. So the opposite of that, which is uh, well, let's just say blind acceptance, is believing things because everyone says so, letting emotions or authority fig figures decide what's true for you, avoiding hard questions because they make you uncomfortable, or cherry-picking facts that only support what you already believe. So critical thinking is curiosity with discipline. It's conscious, it's deliberate, it's intentional. And how often do we speak on that? Intention is everything. This is still something we've been talking about from day one. Yeah. Blind acceptance is choosing comfort over truth. And it's usually unconscious behavior. And I really truly believe we're all, not all, a lot of people are walking around living in their unconscious world and not knowing how to be intentional with anything, not knowing how to be mindful with anything. So I feel like this kind of all goes with where we stand with psychedelics and like going into your subconscious and learning how to think consciously and respond before you react, you know?

SPEAKER_00: 20:26

It's it's kind of like what Joe Dispensa talks a lot about. I don't know if you guys know who Joe Dispensa is. He's a big meditation guy, but he talks a lot about how you're right. Like we are living very unconsciously. We're just kind of going through the motions and and to work on making the unconscious things conscious and then reframing that thought.

SPEAKER_02: 20:49

Ooh, I really like that. Didn't you read one of his books, or you just kind of follow his work?

SPEAKER_00: 20:54

Um, I I've just follow his work and do his meditations. So I I would do I would love to go to a retreat or something like that eventually one day and and you know find people who you know practice what he does. Yeah, they're just kind of into this shit and into this, into this woo-woo. I love this shit. It's not woo-woo, which to me I think it's intentionally living, but you know, yeah, consciously living, living in our consciousness tomato tomato.

SPEAKER_02: 21:19

Yeah, same thing. So this is something that I I remember texting you about this because I was like, oh my God. Like, here's a fun fact. Because I've heard you say this so many times. Like, use your discernment, use your discernment. You how many times have you said that? I do say that a lot of times to my kids constantly. Right. Well, discernment is the ability to perceive, distinguish, and judge between different things to determine what's true. It is the act of applying critical thinking. It is not the same as critical thinking. You cannot have discernment without practicing critical thought.

SPEAKER_01: 21:58

Ooh.

SPEAKER_02: 22:00

So it is like the symptom of critical thinking is discernment. Or maybe that's not really, I wouldn't say it's a symptom, but maybe like the the reward.

SPEAKER_00: 22:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 22:13

If you lack discernment, this is where people see things in black and white. They have a hard time holding two truths at once, um, which we've talked about before, is called splitting, where it's either you're either good or you're bad. You're there's no in between, which I think we can all agree that not everyone is all good and all bad. And we all have good and bad qualities.

SPEAKER_00: 22:39

Well, and I think too, when you like there's a lot of I'm on this side, and so if somebody disagrees with me, then I'm gonna other ize them. When you maybe have not had a conversation, you're making just assumptions of where they're at or who they are, or you know, it was somebody that you really, really loved, and now you just it's like, you know, I've experienced it a decade, and uh it's now I'm bad. I loved you, but now you're bad, and now I don't like you, and now all of these things we've done that before. Yes, I have been that person before. I guess where I'm going with is it is it took some self-accountability to to be like, wow, I'm I'm I'm putting these people in boxes. I put myself in a box. Um, and most people when they make choices, they're not doing it with the intention of being evil. They're doing it with the intention of trying to do the right thing, trying to take care of themselves or their families on all sides. And we're sitting here and we're again otherizing each other when I think no matter what way people vote, most people think that they're trying to do good. Right. So it's like, who's to say that you are good and they are bad and vice versa?

SPEAKER_02: 24:03

I love that you keep saying otherized. I have never heard that before. I don't even know if that's a real word, but I love that. Because that's like like now you're one of them.

SPEAKER_00: 24:12

Yes.

SPEAKER_02: 24:12

You're othered. Yes.

SPEAKER_00: 24:14

Yes. And to me, otherized. My yeah, I don't even know if that's working. I'm using, we're using it. My argument with with that is if that's what you're doing, maybe take a look at that where you think that everyone who votes different or thinks differently than you is bad. Um, because you're kind of doing what the government exactly what the government wants you to do. And you are being hateful towards your neighbor or your friend or your family member. Um, and again, I'm I'm I'm guilty of this. I'm I'm I was a big, big splitter. Uh, and that's this is a whole nother thing. But you're to me, I feel like you're feeding right into the propaganda. And it's what a what a convenience when we all hate each other and we are come becoming more polarized and more divided instead of what good could we do when even besides our differences, we could be united and be able to talk to each other and listen to each other and then maybe focus our attention on um the things that we need to focus our attention on, which is not each other, and it's maybe the powers that be just saying. Just saying. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02: 25:31

Well, it's it's funny you say that because I think that like when we when we go down into my propaganda rabbit hole, it's it's by design, it's for a reason. And if you want to like attach the spiritual woo-woo side to this, um love is the highest vibration when you're operating out of love and when you are operating out of hate and fear, it is such a low vibration, it is impossible to resonate with your higher self. So are you happening that so I just think we all need to take a step back and say, is this for my highest good? And I think I think it's important to be selfish in these situations because I think that we have said this before, even before we like started talking about politics. Like, it is not selfish to say, I am going to do what's best for me and my family and make sure that we're good. And then when we are good, that creates a ripple effect and creates good energy for everyone else.

SPEAKER_00: 26:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 26:41

You know, so it's it's like be mindful of the energy that you're putting out into the world because that is what's going to help raise our vibration or lower it.

SPEAKER_00: 26:53

Yeah. I I'm gonna be a little crass, but there are people that I know who are so angry about the state of the world and who's in power, who's not in power. And um, again, I'm speaking from experience, but there is you see so much dysregulation and thinking and acting on fear. Yeah. And I am thinking in my head, oh man, if you took that energy and you put it into yourself, oh my god, like then you could really do some damage. Good damage, like good damage, yeah. Like, then you could really like move some shit around in your life. 100%. Then you spread that. But anywho.

SPEAKER_02: 27:39

And and to speak on that, I think that we have both lived through that where we took our focus and our energy inward. We worked on ourselves. By doing that, it encouraged our husbands to do the work. By doing that, we have created families that are healing. We have broken generational curses and traumas. Like we are continuing to put good out into the world by creating other good humans. Yes. Because we focused on ourselves.

SPEAKER_00: 28:13

Yes. And what better way to put good out in the world by being it and by modeling it and not by saying it. Yeah. Like, you know, it's it's something that I've like have had a talk with like a lot of conservative Christians about where I'm like, okay, but here's the problem. We we both have a faith in something. We have we just have different interpretations of it, right? I like one, I think God is a woman. Um, I think God is in all of us. I think we kind of create our own heaven or hell. That's just my personal belief. I I it's it's up for my interpretation because at the end of the day, who fucking knows? And we we don't know.

SPEAKER_02: 28:59

Well, there's a lot of ancient wisdom, like Toltic wisdom speaks on that. There is no heaven or hell that you go to when you die. It's like what you create in your mind. Yeah, yeah. No, it's right here.

SPEAKER_00: 29:10

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 29:11

We're already it, we're already in it.

SPEAKER_00: 29:12

Right. I don't know where I was going with that. I'm so sorry. No, that's okay. No, no, no, that's okay.

SPEAKER_02: 29:17

Umservative Christians.

SPEAKER_00: 29:19

Oh, but you know, it's I just try to offer like a different perspective. I'm I will say this. This isn't where I was going, but I do want to say this. This is just from my personal experience. I have had an easier time talking to conservative Christians and having a conversation where we don't agree on much. I've had a much harder time talking to liberal Democrats on where we don't agree. Yeah, there is no conversation at all. And so my hope is that there are some people who are left-leaning who are more willing to have some civil discourse without um exiling me, or like a a big thing I notice is if I say something where I have a critique about the left, their automatic rebuttal is to be like, well, Trump. And I'm like, listen, I don't give a fuck about Trump. Okay. Like you're you're like, you're talking to me like I'm a Trumper and I'm not. And I'm talking about the left and why left and went to the middle, and you're bringing to Trump, and that's right now it's irrelevant to the conversation. And oftentimes I hear, well, he is so triggering for me because he reminds me of so and so. I've heard that so many times. And to me, I'm like, well, you are having a conversation and making choices from a very emotional place. Not saying that you still don't you can still dislike him and you can still not agree with what he says, how he is as a president, all of this stuff. That is that is those are valid arguments that I would not disagree with you on, but you're very emotional. It's coming from an emotional and triggered, wounded place. And so it's hard to have a conversation with you because I am unable to like focus on the things at hand, and you're otherizing me, and I'm not. Like, I don't fall into that. So, like, you can't do that.

SPEAKER_02: 31:31

Well, we'll get into this in a second. Second, but emotions override critical thinking. Ooh. They do. So it's something that we have to be very aware of because if your heightened emotions are causing you to be triggered, you're not going to be thinking critically in that moment. Yeah. So it's really important that we like notice where we're feeling emotionally triggered and we sit with it for a minute before we react. Um, I wanted to give some examples of like some things just to like show the difference between critical thinking and blind acceptance. I'm gonna have a hard time saying that because I wanna it's it's um all right. So let's say uh there's a post about coffee causing cancer. Uncritical thinking would be like, oh my God, I just saw something saying coffee causes cancer. I guess I'm gonna stop drinking that now. Like, unless it let's just say like you just saw an article, you didn't even open the link, you didn't even read the article, you just saw a headline and immediately were like, fuck, now coffee causes cancer. Guess I'm done with that. A critical thinking response would be, well, who published it? Was it an actual study? Was it a clickbait article? Because a lot of times they let me be very clear. In public relations and marketing, they know what they're doing with headlines. It is by design that it grabs your attention and it invokes an emotional reaction. This is something that even we have learned through our podcast with content. You have to say something so off the wall with your caption, or maybe create a clip that is like out of context to like grab attention so people watch it to hear what you're trying to say. That is like marketing 101. Yeah, and the media does it. Everybody does like Stephen Bartlett of The Diary of a CEO will do it. Yes, like his podcast titles are meant to evoke an emotional response. So you're like, what the? I want to listen. What are you talking about?

SPEAKER_00: 33:45

Yes, like even the trailers. I'm like, oh shit, this trailer for the podcast episode, damn.

SPEAKER_02: 33:50

Like, this is like watching reality TV. This is gonna get crazy. And then you listen and you're like, oh, they're just having a conversation. Like there was no debate, there was no heat in that at all. But I want to give an example of a time that I did this because I feel so stupid looking back at this situation. Um, my husband came home and he had just like left his friend group, and he's just like, Did you know that there are some schools that are putting litter boxes in high schools for kids who identify as furry? And I was like, What the fuck? And I immediately get on Marco and I'm telling a friend, I'm like, oh my God, how crazy is this? As soon as I left her that message, I was like, hold on. Let me Google that real quick. And then I Google it, and it's like, actually, that's been debunked. That was a social experiment done by a high school class years ago, and it was to see how fast misinformation can spread and how fast rumors can spread. Oh shit. And I immediately, before I even like, I read that and I was like, fuck, I feel like a fucking idiot because I just got on a Marco and sent that to someone so fucking annoyed, and I hope they don't believe it. And I got on there and I was like, by the way, I just Googled that and that's not true. Don't spread that shit. And she was like, Yeah, I knew it wasn't true. Like, and I was like, I felt like an idiot.

SPEAKER_00: 35:17

But I think it's, you know, I'm glad you caught it, and I'm glad you did your research and then retracted that. It's with, you know, my stepdaughters, they have a lot of fear instilled in them. And, you know, one day one of them sent a message in the group chat and she was like, Oh my god, like I'm worried about like I'm gonna get drafted for World War III. And it's just like, okay, you gotta let's get off the TikToks. And nothing, there's there's nothing happening, but it's she just saw a video and it was salacious and again very fear-based in the way that it was presented. And then she just took it as truth and internalized it and was like, oh my god, this is what's happening. And I think it's very hard in this day and age because we are so um flooded with information. And it's like you watch Fox News, you watch MSNBC, and they're telling the same, they're talking about the same event, but the way that they're talking about it are two polar opposites. And it's kind of like what you said in a previous episode where it's like you'll listen to one side and listen to the other, and then maybe do your own research and find some truth in the middle. Unfortunately, I feel like we're so polarized though, that if it's on our side, then we automatically believe it. And if it's the other, we automatically dismiss it as like fake news and it's whatever.

SPEAKER_02: 36:45

Yeah, I found a study on that actually.

SPEAKER_00: 36:48

Do tell.

SPEAKER_02: 36:49

Oh, I'll tell you later.

SPEAKER_00: 36:50

Okay.

SPEAKER_02: 36:51

This is again, there's gonna be a lot of moments like this where it's an invitation for you guys to go back and listen to my rabbit hole episode. All right, we don't have to do more examples, but I wrote some. Critical thinking is let me see if this is true. And uncritical thinking is basically just like I'll take your word for it. Page one, done. Oof. All right. What would affect someone's critical thinking skills?

SPEAKER_00: 37:15

Um, I think fear.

SPEAKER_02: 37:17

Oh, so much. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Raise your hand, class. Um, so here's what's interesting. Critical thinking isn't a skill that someone has or doesn't have, uh, doesn't have. Um, it is something that can shut down in the wrong conditions. Everybody has it, and it's like a muscle that you have to work out. And we'll get to that towards the end, like how to practice your critical thinking skills. Seems like common sense, but it's actually doing this and writing all this stuff down. I'm like, I don't think a lot of people do this, and I am guilty of not doing this sometimes.

SPEAKER_00: 37:58

Oh, I bet it has to be so conscious and intentional. You have to be critical, especially in the world we live in now.

SPEAKER_02: 38:04

Uh especially in the world we live in now. You know if they used to teach logic before the Rockefellers like fucked up the educational system.

SPEAKER_00: 38:12

You guys, I'm doing a deep dive on John D.

SPEAKER_02: 38:16

Rockefeller right now, and it is why I did I did not try to, I am like trying to stay out of that rabbit hole. Please do. So, but Jason, my husband brought that up to me because he's reading a book right now about Latin. He's in law school and he was like, they used to teach Latin. They used to teach logic. School was very different.

SPEAKER_00: 38:35

Well, and also weren't most people like farmers, they had land. If they went to school, it was to be to learn how to read and write. But the the like the wonderful thing about that is like you learned from your like family or your community. And so people were critical thinkers and thought for themselves and worked for themselves, and they taught had a lot of skills, like handy skills. Even um, Candace Owen has talked about it about how we've gotten dumber, where if you like listen to or read the letters that um like 18-year-old boys wrote their moms from World War One, yeah, they were not educated and they were the most eloquent and articulate. Articulate letters. Like, we don't talk like that anymore.

SPEAKER_02: 39:28

Oh my god. Jason read a letter to me from this famous, um, he was like a Supreme Court judge back in the early 1900s, and he used to write letters to people, and there are books that are literally just filled with letters that he wrote. And I'm like, I'm going to need you to translate every word he said because I don't know what the fuck he was talking about. And these weren't like letters to other judges, these were letters to friends where he was like, My dearest Edward, it is with great remorse that you know, like the way that they talked. We are so dumb right now. Like the way we're like six, seven, bruh, bruh. And what the sigma? Oh my God. Living with teenagers right now is like hilarious.

SPEAKER_00: 40:16

Dude, I I have a six-year-old that says what the sigma. And I'm like, you need to stop it right now. Jesus. And skibbity toilets. Yeah. What the fuck does that mean? Let's teach Latin again. Okay, but I have something. Can I share it? It is, um, hang on a second. I gotta find it real quick. So here it is. Okay. Instead of lol, say that statement has rendered me most amused. That's how they talked! I know. That is legit. And I want to learn how to talk like this. Instead of rah, say, my good fellow, I am utterly astounded by your actions. Instead of wow, say such marvel marvels leave me thoroughly astonished. Instead of OMG, say gracious heavens above, I can scarcely comprehend such happenings. The fuck? Instead of nah. Say, regretfully, I must refuse your proposition. Instead of huh? Say, pray, could you elucidate the matter once more? Instead of yikes, say, I am thoroughly disquieted by the gr grievous spectacle before me.

SPEAKER_02: 41:32

Where the fuck did you get that?

SPEAKER_00: 41:35

TikTok, baby. Oh my god. And you best believe I saved that.

SPEAKER_02: 41:40

Oh my god. Jason would love this because he was like literally talking to me about how dumb we are.

SPEAKER_00: 41:46

Like how our con how I want to learn how to talk like that, and I'm being dead ass.

SPEAKER_02: 41:51

Well, you have to learn how to speak or at least read like that when you do law, because that's how stuff is old school. Yeah, it's that's how laws are written.

SPEAKER_00: 42:01

Fucking love it.

SPEAKER_02: 42:02

I try to read some of this, uh, some of the stuff that he writes, or and I'm like, I need you to translate this into crayon for me.

SPEAKER_00: 42:09

I'm gonna say something so out of pocket right now. If Tony learned how to talk to me like that and write me letters like that, my panties would be dropped.

SPEAKER_02: 42:21

So wet. Consider them on the floor. Yeah. And it, I mean, it's smart as sexy. Smart is sexy.

SPEAKER_00: 42:30

Oh my god. Yeah. No, we need to figure this out. Anyways.

SPEAKER_02: 42:33

Okay. All right. So here are some of the things that could affect someone's critical thinking skills. Um, emotions, strong emotions. When we're angry or scared or deeply attached to a belief, our rational brain shuts down. It is the amygdala. That is where our brain's emotional alarm system is. The amygdala hijacks logic and it floods us with flight or fight chemistry. Fight or flight. Flight, I said it backwards, but fight or flight chemistry.

SPEAKER_00: 43:04

Yeah, I think you see that a lot, just even when I spoke out against the DNC, the just sheer anger from people. And, you know, I think it's another thing too. So much of that stuff you would never say to somebody's face. And if you did say that that to somebody's face, you'd probably get socked. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 43:27

Well, and it's just so reactive and and I think about the episode that we did just last week with Amanda um Newton and how she was talking about like the way that our body responds when we're in fight or flight. And for me, my neck and chest get so red, I get so hot. I can feel the temperature rising in my face and in my neck. And it looks like I'm like breaking out into hives. And so that's my body like telling me, hey, your emotions are kind of taking over right now. And emotions also override curiosity. So we really have to find a way to like not ignore those emotions, but maybe take a beat.

SPEAKER_00: 44:13

Yeah, and like learn to sit with it, sit with it a second.

SPEAKER_02: 44:16

It's gonna be uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_00: 44:18

Yeah. And and why are you getting so um triggered by what somebody says? We're never gonna live in a world where everyone agrees with us and everyone has our perspective and everyone has our belief system. That's it's impossible. That would be a dictatorship.

SPEAKER_02: 44:32

Oh my God, you're right. But I was gonna say, I think that there is this idea that everyone has that we're all gonna agree one day. And that is such a fucking lie. I don't know why anybody on earth would think that. That is not possible. Well, and also there is always going to be good and evil in the world. There is always, there is never gonna be anybody who agrees with you 100% ever. Well, and what a way to set up people you love for failure. Right. Right. So, okay, another thing that affects someone's critical thinking, um, information overload. Right now, we're like drowning in content and social media algorithms. And another thing about the algorithm rhythms right now, they are by design created to evoke a reaction out of you. But not only that, they are different based on what you look at, what you spend time on. So my algorithm is very different than my husband's. Yours is probably, well, ours are probably the same because we send a lot of back shit back and forth. Yeah. But like, you know, if you're liking content that is politically biased, it is going to continue to show you that exact same stuff that is going to evoke the same emotional reaction from you. And this is not conspiracy, this is fact, this is literally how an algorithm is built to work.

SPEAKER_00: 46:03

I don't know about you, but I've kind of gotten to the point where I, if anything political shows up on my algorithm, it is calling out both sides. Oh, and the disappointment in both sides.

SPEAKER_02: 46:18

Well, I think because our we have created an algorithm that sits in the middle.

SPEAKER_00: 46:23

Yeah. Yes, yes. I'm loving it, honestly. It's like I've got, you know, Coleman Hughes, who is not a Trump or has always voted Democrat, but has some opinions about the left. Or, you know, there are Republicans who still vote Republican, but they have opinions about the party or Trump, or, you know, people who are in the middle. Um not all Republicans are MAGA, by the way. Yeah. That's a very good point. Yeah. And also I I There's a spectrum. But I would also argue that there are a lot of Democrats who left the left as well because it got a little too too extreme. Yeah. And they still consider themselves a Democrat, but they're struggling with the um trajectory of where this party is going. I've gotten a lot of that. I've and I've gotten a lot of people who are scared to share their opinion because uh I think left is, I think they're very big on cancel culture, and I highly disagree with it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 47:32

Sounds like a lot of silencing.

SPEAKER_00: 47:34

Yes, a lot of silencing and a lot of exiling on that side, I feel like.

SPEAKER_02: 47:39

So the information overload is when your brain is overwhelmed, it defaults to shortcuts. So it learns to trust what's familiar or emotionally satisfying. Um, so fatigue kills discernment. There was an old bachelorette, I think her name is Becca. I follow her now because she's very, she's like a homesteader now.

SPEAKER_00: 48:04

I know exactly who you're talking about. Dark short hair. Yes.

SPEAKER_02: 48:07

Yes. I kind of love her.

SPEAKER_00: 48:09

Yeah, I do too.

SPEAKER_02: 48:11

And she doesn't she doesn't shave her pits. She doesn't shave anything. Okay, like her legs, her pits, nothing. And nothing wrong with that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 48:17

Go on, go on, go with the phone.

SPEAKER_02: 48:19

Listen, I was an esthetician for a very long time. So I am I don't like hair.

SPEAKER_00: 48:25

Can I bring something up? I was I was paid to rip hair off your body. Can have you seen the um skims uh the panty bush?

SPEAKER_02: 48:36

Yes. So I used to, there used to be there's a thing called a Merkin. Do you know what a Merkin is? No. It's like when like it's it's a fake bush. For if there's an actress who doesn't have hair down there and they need to look like they have hair down there, it's literally a fake bush. And that's what those panties remind me of.

SPEAKER_00: 48:56

You should get one since you've had laser. Don't say that. Listen, I don't have to worry about it. I don't I don't need bush underwear.

SPEAKER_02: 49:08

Do they make do they come in pink? What about rainbow? Oh shit. Okay. Um TMI, sorry. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, okay. So, oh shit. So she did uh, I guess she has a podcast, and I saw a clip of her saying to her husband in this podcast, I think it's okay to ignore political content and say, I don't want to see this, change your algorithm so you're not being emotionally charged because it is daily, all day, 25-8. Got that from you. Um and so if you know that this is like changing the way you are throughout the day, making you not as present with your children, if it is like emotionally activating you throughout the day, take a break. Change your algorithm, stop watching it. And one of the comments was like, um, that's a very privileged way to be. It's not a privilege to choose to consume different content. You're choose what you're not changing, you're choosing. And so, like, you're choosing to continue to activate yourself.

SPEAKER_00: 50:24

Since you said that, yeah, can I also add um in 2012, the word racism, white privilege, and transgenderism skyrocketed on our algorithms because that's when algorithms were created. And so again, I think it's okay to ask yourself like, why does this keep showing up to me? Are that many people that racist? I've experienced racism, but as a whole, I I think most people are, you know, good people and they are not like that. Are there? Yes. I think it's I think for for me, I think it's been blown up so much because of our algorithms intentionally trying to create divide and polarization and emotion. And again, for you to other eyes someone else.

SPEAKER_02: 51:16

I would love to do a rabbit hole in 2012. Another time.

SPEAKER_00: 51:22

Yes.

SPEAKER_02: 51:23

We've texted each other before and been like, holy shit, another connection. Holy shit, another connection.

SPEAKER_00: 51:28

Mental health declined. A lot of these kind of trigger emotional wars. Polarization starts, like it's It was like the rise of social media. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 51:40

But there's so much that happened during that year that I'm like, And there's so many dots to take.

SPEAKER_00: 51:45

What did you say? The mind calendar ended.

SPEAKER_02: 51:47

Yeah, but we'll get into that. Okay. It's I feel like there's like we we could keep going. We could keep going.

SPEAKER_00: 51:52

Two ADHD groups into a podcast room. What are we gonna talk about? I don't fucking know. We're in 15 different directions in about the span of seven minutes.

SPEAKER_02: 52:01

This is why I thought, like, I'm gonna have to write notes. And I don't want you guys to know, I'm not like directly reading them. I am trying really hard to just stay focused and stay on track. Okay, so strong emotions, information overload, group think, and social pressure affect critical thinking skills. Africa Brook has talked on this, like how very humans are very tribalistic. We crave belonging to a group more than we crave truth. And that is, it is always going to be a part of our biology. We crave connection. And hundreds and thousands and thousands of years ago, we all thrived in tribes and communities. And if you thought something different than your tribe, it often meant you were exiled, excommunicated, sometimes killed. That happened because you went outside of what the group thought. So it is a survival instinct for us. We crave belonging, even at the expense of being wrong. So, group think and social pressure. We're naturally a tribal species. If your tribe believes something, it's really hard to question it without feeling disloyal or alienated. It's really hard.

SPEAKER_00: 53:22

Oh, yeah. We we're seeing it in real time where people are scared to talk to us. People, things we've spoken about, people have been like, oh my God, thank you. I'm like so scared to say anything to anybody about this. And um, yeah, so people, it's there's a lot of with this uh polarization, there's a lot of self-censorship because people are scared of the backlash of groupthink. So it's almost like something where it's like, again, you kind of have to make that unconscious, because we're kind of designed to be that way, kind of have to make that unconscious thinking conscious and then reframe it.

SPEAKER_02: 54:01

And you kind of have to say, Am I okay if this tribe exiles me? It hurts when that happens. Yeah. No matter how big or small that tribe is, like it is something that you have to be okay with. And that is like something I think a lot of people, the reason they don't speak out is because they're afraid of that.

SPEAKER_00: 54:20

But I will say, and I do think that there it there has to, you have to get to a point where you are okay with yourself and you know who you are, and you like like no matter what somebody tells you who you are, you know that what it what it you know your truth. Right. There is something liberating about being canceled in this cancel culture because it's it's it's there is like you can throw, oh you're you're not the other, and it's like, but I'm not though. You can throw, you know, oh, you know, you you're a brown person and and now you're you're not this, and so like you you don't get to be brown anymore. It's like, yeah, I do. Still am, still am, says no matter what you throw at me, I know who I am and I know what I what I stand for. And also I stand on my mistakes, I stand on changing my mind, I stand on that I'm not always right, I stand on that I could change my mind the next episode, I stand on that I'm not an expert. So like okay.

SPEAKER_02: 55:28

There's nothing you could say that like is going to make me feel less than or shamed, or you can't shame me into anything, like or guilt me into anything.

SPEAKER_00: 55:40

Well, and also there's kind of like why are you so worked up right now? Like what what like it's it's nice to not like subscribe to being in a box or being a label because then it's like I kind of encompass a lot of different things and a lot of different viewpoints.

SPEAKER_02: 55:56

That feels like to me, freedom. Yeah. To me, that's where this idea of freedom really, really resides is within yourself.

SPEAKER_00: 56:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 56:09

I feel the most free I've ever felt because I'm I'm unapologetically who I am. Right. And it doesn't fit in a box.

SPEAKER_00: 56:19

And I don't know you can't put me in a box.

SPEAKER_02: 56:21

I want to say there is like a good side to this because we have both experienced this exile. I don't think we're big enough to be canceled. But you know what I mean? Like we've been unfriended. We have family members who are like upset with us. That is a price you pay, but the reward and the other side of that is you find other people who kind of feel the same and they felt lonely. We have very few people that we have these conversations with, but it feels really good. Well, and also to know that we can.

SPEAKER_00: 56:58

When you're showing up authentically with your opinion or your self-expression, oftentimes I think a lot of the people that are closest to you, it doesn't resonate with. But then the wonderful thing about social media is then you do find the people who do resonate with you. And they're like, oh my God, I feel politically homeless too. I'm in the middle too. You're attracting a more authentic audience. It might be a smaller audience or a smaller group or a you know, a smaller circle, but at least it's real where you feel like you can self-express and and other people can do the same too. And I feel like it's more fulfilling because it's more authentic. Right. Like who wants in whether you're talking about politics or anything, who wants to feel like they have to self-censor everything, every opinion, every belief that sucks because walking on eggshells with somebody is not fun. Feeling like you can't show up as your full self, that is not fun. And unfortunately, that is what politics has become. I saw this chick on uh a tick or a reel and she wasn't from the US, and she got asked by somebody like, what since moving here, what have you noticed about our political system here? And she's like, Well, here in America, people don't just have opinions, their beliefs are so tied with their identity. So if somebody has a different political opinion than you, you take it as they're attacking your identity and you're and and they're not, where in other countries they're just uh opinions. Where here it's it's it's you know, if I if I have an opinion about something, let's say kids being on puberty blockers or something, again, a response I got well, well, well, my someone I know did this. And I'm like, I'm not attacking that person that you know. I'm just saying that this is an opinion for me, that I I just don't agree with it. I think there's a lot of push for that uh in our shows and in social media. And I I don't know why. If anybody's gonna be having these conversations with my children, it's gonna be me. Right. Not a show. But again, she took that as a personal attack, and it's not it's not meant to be at all, and it's not meant to be hateful, it's not meant to be discriminatory at all. It's just my opinion.

SPEAKER_02: 59:34

It's an opinion. So no, you're right. And I also uh to add to whatever she said, I feel like it is so impossible to not politicize every fucking thing today. Why is healthy food politicized?

unknown: 59:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 59:54

Why is our our medicine political? Why is our healthcare political? Why is this shit political? Why is it if you think this, you think you're on this side, and if you think this, you're on that side? Like, that is such a low IQ way of thinking about anything. I it it it's just frustrating. I get really frustrated because it shouldn't be political, and people are like, but it is. Okay, well, I'm saying it's not.

SPEAKER_00: 1:00:25

So like I can have a different belief. And even if you do think it's political, again, you should maybe learn to have a conversation with people that you don't agree with so you don't stay stuck in an echo chamber and it go deeper and deeper, because unfortunately, that is what is happening. There are people who are trying to still have those conversations and they're trying to like work with people on both sides to try to find some like unity and common ground. And, you know, again, like there was a time where people disagreed, people got married and they didn't have the same, you know, political affiliation, and it was like not that big of a deal. And yeah, it's just I don't know.

SPEAKER_02: 1:01:12

Oh, Jason also told me they used to teach debate. Oh my God, I would love that class. You I would thrive. I would not. Okay, so let's keep going. Comfort and certainty. And we kind of talked about this, but like if you are a critical thinker, it is common to Be okay with not knowing. Uncertainty and critical thinking kind of go together. A lot of times people will trade simplicity for the truth or truth for simplicity because it feels more comfortable to them. Like having an answer feels good, even if it's wrong. They would rather know than say, I don't have an opinion on that.

SPEAKER_00: 1:01:58

Right.

SPEAKER_02: 1:01:59

I have a different life experience. So my opinion is going to be different than yours. So yeah, I just think that what did I say? Comfort and certainty. That's one thing. Cognitive, cognitive, why am I hat not saying this? Cognitive biases. Our brains are full of invisible filters. So there's different types of bias. There's confirmation bias, which is where we notice what supports our views and ignore what doesn't. Um, authority bias, we believe experts, or if someone sounds confident, we believe them, even if they're wrong. And then there's anchoring bias, which is where you cling to the first thing you heard as the baseline truth. So bias sabotages critical thinking. And I will go over this in the next episode, but there is a study where they look at cognitive biases and how it affects your critical thinking. And it is like pretty fascinating when you see the results.

SPEAKER_00: 1:03:00

Well, and we all have those people on our social media where everything that they post about the other side is bad, and everything that they post about their side is like good. And it's like it's kind of like this mentality of like my side is going to save the world and your side is going to ruin the world. And that's all that they post. So when anything happens in the world, it is an opportunity to talk shit about the other side, no matter what. And like for me, I want to say to those people, okay, instead of like continuing to go this direction, because it's really not like doing anything for probably many of your listeners unless they already agree with you. Maybe you should start saying three things that you don't like about your party or your politician you're in favor, and three things that you wish you would could change about your party. That's that like I would like I want to see that shit.

SPEAKER_02: 1:04:00

But Cassine that might get them canceled. No, I think you're right. I'm just I'm shitting. I'm like giving you a hard time. But like that would be such a difficult thing for someone to do because then people would assume what they assume about others.

unknown: 1:04:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:04:20

When they go against the ground. You know what I mean? Like they're so afraid of judgment because if they saw someone post that, they would be like, up.

SPEAKER_00: 1:04:28

Fuck her.

SPEAKER_02: 1:04:30

I this what is the word you've been using? Otherized them.

SPEAKER_00: 1:04:33

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:04:34

Like they don't want to be otherized.

SPEAKER_00: 1:04:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:04:36

So it's I agree with you. I think we should make I think that that would take a very brave person to do that.

SPEAKER_00: 1:04:42

I think we need more bravery in that way. I would like I would love to see that. Because it's like, you know, with especially with social media and with politics and social media, I'm like, you know, you've been posting the same shit for 12 years, bestie. Like, it's the same thing. No matter what, you're anti that person or you know, that side, and you're for this side, and that's all you post about. Yeah. And it just doesn't really change anybody's mind because we know you're just stuck there.

SPEAKER_02: 1:05:13

Well, and by that time, and I want to get into this later, at that point, people already know your beliefs. I know. You don't have to announce them. Oh. All your 200 followers know exactly where you stand. You're not changing anybody's mind because if they disagreed with you, they probably already unfollowed you or muted you. Right. So they're not seeing it anyway. Right. So you're only sharing this stuff in your little echo chamber who already believes it. Yeah. You're not changing anybody's minds.

SPEAKER_00: 1:05:44

I love how like the bravery is standing in the um, I'm in the middle and I'm not sure about everything.

SPEAKER_02: 1:05:49

Yeah. Right. Like, what the fuck? Crazy. What? That's crazy. Okay, we're gonna start getting juicy here. Exhaustion, stress, and poor health. If your nervous system is fried or your brain is underfueled, your higher reasoning doesn't fire properly. Critical thinking requires energy, um, which literally provides glucose and oxygen to your prefrontal cortex. So without energy, you are not giving your brain what it needs to think critically. It's like offline. It's like, we're tired. I don't want to do this right now. Let's just do what you want. Do what you want. Like, that's me being a brain. I think in today's world, it is impossible to not be exhausted, stressed, or tired.

SPEAKER_00: 1:06:39

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:06:41

You have to work really hard at not being those things. And it seems like you're fighting a never-ending battle.

SPEAKER_00: 1:06:50

Oh, you have to be so conscious about it. And I think there are people who do this rhetoric like, well, why didn't you post about this? And why didn't you care about this? And why didn't you? And it's like, we're tired. I'm fucking tired. We're tired, Susan. Times are tough. We're tired. There's something to be upset and sad. There's a tragedy all over the world. We're not meant to see tragedies all over the world. And we do like it's normal and it's not. It's not normal. And, you know, sometimes people do care about things and they don't post about it. I don't know. There's that too.

SPEAKER_02: 1:07:23

Yeah. Well, and if you want to bring human design into this, there are people with like a defined throat center and people with an open throat center. You and I both have defined throats. We are meant to speak our truth. We are not meant to stand up for the masses.

SPEAKER_00: 1:07:39

Ooh, okay.

SPEAKER_02: 1:07:40

People with an open throat are more likely the people who are speaking on behalf of others. I am not meant to do that. And I there are people out there who are, but it's not me. And it's not, it might not be you. And so it is okay to not post something on someone else's behalf because you feel like you're being pressured to do so.

SPEAKER_00: 1:08:07

It's okay. And I've done that, and it um caused a lot of mental health issues because I did do those things and I don't think I was meant to do it. And I think it's okay to not post about everything, not post about the things you care about at all. And I don't know if you remember.

SPEAKER_02: 1:08:27

It doesn't mean you don't care.

SPEAKER_00: 1:08:29

Right. Yeah. I I think about the um black square during BLM and how if somebody didn't post that black scare square, and I was somebody who was guilty of judging people. So like I'm whole I'm calling myself out in this, judging people who didn't post that black square. And it's so performative, and a lot of people did it because they felt pressure and they felt like they had to do it. And and I think about that time about there was so much pressure to do things a certain way and post a certain way. And if you didn't, oh, and you had any type of a platform, you were canceled. And I think about if we were to have, if we would have had that podcast at that time, our podcast at that time, like we would have been pressured to do it. And we probably would have done it.

SPEAKER_02: 1:09:20

Well, we would have done it. Yeah. Uh you just said like it's never perfect. Do you also remember during that time, like if you posted it and you did hashtag BLM, they were like, you can't do that because it's it if you or you were either supposed to hashtag BLM or ha or not hashtag it because it was messing with the algorithm?

SPEAKER_00: 1:09:42

Yeah, I I like that. So there were like rules around it.

SPEAKER_02: 1:09:45

So they were like, if you're posting it, you have to do it this way.

SPEAKER_00: 1:09:49

And now we know that BLM took a lot of the money and didn't give it to the black communities. Yeah. And so people got bullied for that. Yeah. Um, I think also people get bullied to give money to different organizations or nonprofits or fundraisers. And sometimes I get why people, I'm more hesitant about it now because I don't know where that money is going.

SPEAKER_02: 1:10:09

I want to see where it's going.

SPEAKER_00: 1:10:11

Yes.

SPEAKER_02: 1:10:11

And you know, you know what that is though? That's using your critical thinking and not just believing it because they say it. Like I want to know for a fact that my money is going to go do some good before I just give it to you.

SPEAKER_00: 1:10:25

Yeah. The founders went and bought some mansions and shit. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:10:28

Yeah. That's been proven. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:10:30

Not speculation.

SPEAKER_02: 1:10:31

That is not a conspiracy.

SPEAKER_00: 1:10:32

Yeah, that's a fact.

SPEAKER_02: 1:10:34

Um, okay, so lack of practice or education. So this is just like lack of practice of critical thinking. If someone was never taught how to question information or analyze evidence, they just default to emotional reasoning, reasoning or authority because that's what they were taught. They don't know any different and they don't teach critical thinking in schools. They really they don't do this stuff. I wonder why. It's an mmm, but wonder why they don't teach critical thinking in schools. But like to me, like that's not, it's not because you're stupid. It's not stupidity, it's not ignorance. It really is just like you haven't been taught to do this and you have to train yourself to do this. Um, this one's where Oh, you're gonna trigger. You see where I'm going? Yeah. Um trigger. Okay, let's go back to like this is what would affect someone's critical thinking skills: psychotropic medication. Okay, why's that, Leah? If you don't know what psychotropic meds are, they are psychoactive drugs that affect the brain to treat mental illnesses or emotional disorders. These medications blunt your emotional range, which indirectly affects your thinking. If your emotions are dulled, your drive to question can drop. So your curiosity goes out the window. Critical thinking thrives on curiosity. So without that, you can't be a critical thinker. Antidepressants, lower dopamine activity. This is one of those things. When I read this, I was like, holy shit. Think about all the people right now who are being diagnosed with ADHD in their 30s and 40s. And ADHD is low dopamine and norepinephrine. And antidepressants lower your dopamine. I did not know that. Did you know that?

SPEAKER_00: 1:12:34

Well, I know it from you.

SPEAKER_02: 1:12:36

Yeah, because I probably I think I texted you as soon as I like read this and I was like, holy shit. Well, didn't know that. I know they affect your gut health, which is crazy because that's like your second brain. 95% of your serotonin is produced in your gut. So if you are destroying your gut health, of course your body is going to stop producing serotonin naturally. Yeah. That's crazy.

SPEAKER_00: 1:13:00

I just, I I constantly go back. Leah and I are a part of this Facebook group. Um, and it's SSRIs destroyed my marriage. And it's just thousands and thousands of people who are sharing stories about how um their partner took antidepressants and it numbed them. Um, it made them numb to kind of everything, and that caused a lot of trouble in their relationship. And there is just a whole support group of people who have had a um partner who they feel like they lost because of SSRIs. And it's it's really wild. Yeah, it's it's hard to read some of those stories. Oh my god, it it it's heartbreaking.

SPEAKER_02: 1:13:48

And dopamine is what fuels motivation and your reward chemical. So those are like where the curiosity comes in. Do you know how you know how many dopamine hits I got? Like doing all this research? It's like one after the other.

SPEAKER_00: 1:14:04

But can you talk about when you were um had post postpartum depression just a little bit? Obviously, we're not getting into it. We talked about it before, but how you know you were in a bad place in your marriage, and like Jason would do things and stuff that would have made you mad and it should have made you upset.

SPEAKER_02: 1:14:23

Yeah, I know you felt nothing. Completely numbed me. Like he was, this is during his like addiction phase where he would go out and not come home or not answer the phone or not let me know where he was. And before I would like lose my fucking shit when that would happen. Oh my God. Like I would be so emotionally dregulated for days after that. And when I was medicated, I didn't care. And at one point he said he liked me better when I was on medication because it was easier for him. Because I wasn't getting upset when he did things that should very much upset me.

SPEAKER_00: 1:15:16

Even like a show or movie that would typically make you cry.

SPEAKER_02: 1:15:19

Yeah, that's how I knew I needed to come off is when I watched a movie and didn't cry. I cry over everything. I'm the biggest fucking crybaby in the world. So I was like, mm, I think I'm a little too numb right now. And I was on what they would call the baby dose. The smallest dose of Zoloft that is safe. Quotation mark, safe during pregnancy or breastfeeding, because I was so afraid of taking medication and my doctor knew that. And so she was like, why don't we put you on the lowest dose? And I'm like, okay, kind. I can't even imagine how much more numb I would have become if I continued to use it or if I upped my doses. Because I was already so numbed out. And here's the thing, it kind of worked. It it did what it was supposed to do, kinda. I no longer felt depressed, but I also felt nothing.

SPEAKER_00: 1:16:15

Yeah, no, I want to feel joy.

SPEAKER_02: 1:16:17

Yeah. I felt nothing. So yeah, a side effect of a lot of these medications is brain fog, which that is like common information, and slow processing. All right. So another thing, depression and anxiety can affect it. Uh, depression and anxiety impairs your critical thinking by affecting your range of cognitive function, um, your memory, your decision making, promoting negative thought patterns. Anxiety can lead to a bias towards threat, intrusive thoughts, or rumination. And depression can slow information processing. So it encourages hopelessness and pessimism and an all-or-nothing thinking. And we are one of the worst countries with mental health, not just mental health, but also we're very highly medicated. The most medicated and the worst mental health. Make it make sense.

SPEAKER_00: 1:17:12

Well, and also like we're so medicated. How's that working out for us? Apparently, not well.

SPEAKER_02: 1:17:17

It's not. It's not. Um, and then the last thing, manipulation and propaganda, which I will go over this rabbit hole later. Media, political groups, marketing, they all use emotional storytelling and social proof to bypass your critical thinking entirely. And this is, again, I will say, this is by design. It is meant to do that. If you feel fear, outrage, or urgency, that is often a red flag, that something is trying to shortcut your rational mind. People don't lose their critical thinking because they are stupid or ignorant or naive. They lose it because they're tired, scared, overloaded, and you're probably being manipulated. Okay. Love that. Chapter one done. Actually, I think that was chapter two. How to strengthen your critical thinking. All right, this is important. And I think that this is like a practice that everybody could use. Okay. Regulate your nervous system. So when we say go touch grass, that is literally go out in nature. If you are stressed or angry and you can't think critically, go breathe, walk, stretch, ground yourself, delay your reactions. And you don't always have to repost or even respond to someone right away. This is like a really big thing for me. And I think that like you've pointed this out. And sometimes I swing too far in the other direction of not responding. But like I am very much of the belief that I owe no one a response right away, ever.

SPEAKER_00: 1:19:06

And I love that because I'm I've I've I've been very, very guilty of being such a quick responder and a quick reactor when I should have sat on it for a moment.

SPEAKER_02: 1:19:16

Well, and I also think that there is a part of me that wishes I used, I used to wish that I could do what you do. But even through human design, I have learned that I am not meant to respond when I am in an emotional wave. So it is absolutely okay for you to take time to regulate yourself before you give any sort of answer or response. So yeah, go outside and touch some grass or get in some water. A calm body and a clear mind is going to help with your critical thinking. So get out of that emotional state. A question how you know something. Practice asking yourself these questions. How do I know this? Where did I learn it? Is it a fact? How do I know if it's true? What would change my mind? That's a big one. That is a very big one. Because if nothing can change your mind, that is a belief, not a conclusion. If you have an opinion on something and there are facts that disprove that, but they are not changing, like why would that not change your mind? Right. Like it's like I don't know. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00: 1:20:37

But there are people who I've had discussions with where I'm like, no matter what I presented to them, nothing it doesn't matter. And I think about like a marriage. Like I think about if you're struggling with your spouse, you're in a disagreement of something, and if both people, or one person even is like, nope, not changing my mind. No matter what you present to me, no matter how like you tell me you feel, this is it, this is what I think. That marriage would never fucking work.

SPEAKER_02: 1:21:13

Or you'd be miserable the less let the rest of your life staying in that.

SPEAKER_00: 1:21:17

Or whoever the other person is, is they're like, okay, well, I can't, I gotta walk on eggshells. I can't, there's there's nothing I can say to change their mind. There's nothing I can do. I'm I'm I'm gonna, you know, self-censor or mute, or I'm gonna be miserable, or I'm gonna whatever. And it's like that's that's an awful, such an unhealthy relationship. Yet we have normalized that in politics.

SPEAKER_02: 1:21:40

I think that this would be a good time for you to say what you wrote down earlier that Oscar Wilde said.

SPEAKER_00: 1:21:45

Oh, yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_02: 1:21:46

So I feel like this fits right now.

SPEAKER_00: 1:21:48

It does. So Oscar Wilde said that consistency is the last refuge of the unimaginative. And, you know, a lot of highly intelligent people can change their mind when presented with different information. I think about like if like that is a flex.

SPEAKER_02: 1:22:06

It is a to change your mind.

SPEAKER_00: 1:22:09

Absolutely. It's like I think it's a flex right now to be in the middle. And I think about if, you know, we would have met up for lunch and you told me about mushrooms, and I would have just been so closed off because I didn't agree with it. I didn't know it, whatever it was. I was not open to hearing it. Where I was it like my life, I think about my life and where I would be and how much that changed my life because of that conversation where I was curious to what you had to say and was willing to like listen and to hear you. And I think, you know, we need to make it more common to say things like, oh, I used to think, or, oh, well, that's a good point, or didn't think about it that way. Yeah, or oh, let me reconsider, or, you know, I've changed my mind given different information. Or I used to agree with something and now I don't, or vice versa. I I I wish that we could get to a place, and I hope we do, where that is more um normalized. And I think a lot of people, they they double down on these points to protect their ego. But to me, that is um a measure of unintelligence because you're protecting your ego and you're tying your identity to being right instead of just being curious and being willing to learn or being willing to be wrong. And Albert Eidenstein also said the measure of intelligence is the ability to change.

SPEAKER_02: 1:23:40

So this one I think is really hard for people because I don't think people understand how much they operate out of ego unconsciously. I think that's something that you could ask yourself is like, why do I want this to be true so bad? And if it turns out to be true, how would I feel? And this isn't to judge yourself or to criticize yourself or to beat yourself up, but to be aware of something that you might be attached to that that goes much deeper than the surface. So, like, I'm just trying to think of situations where we have confronted ourselves with truth and been like, oh, that's really uncomfortable to sit with. I had to sit with the fact that I was a villain in my own story, and that was an extremely uncomfortable truth. But I didn't want to see that because I knew once I saw that there was gonna be some judgment, there was gonna be some shame, there was gonna be some guilt. And that happens a lot in sobriety when you are faced with this truth that you have an issue. Nobody wants to see that. An addict doesn't want to see that because if they sit with that, they have to face this uh truth that you weren't always the victim. And that that sucks because it means you may have been the villain. And you might feel shame, you might feel guilt, and those are very uncomfortable things, and you you have to it's just a hard thing to sit with. And I think it's important that you ask yourself, like, why do I want this to be true so bad?

SPEAKER_00: 1:25:17

Well, and I think it is a lot easier to project than to self-reflect. Yeah. I mean, think about that. It is a much harder job. I would say it's more worth it to look at yourself, but it's a much harder job to look at yourself and take some self-responsibility for your own suffering, or you know, realize that maybe some of the things that you thought you knew you didn't, or what you thought made you wrong. Yeah. Or admitting you're wrong. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:25:56

And I think that that's what I was trying to tie back to the ego. Like our ego is so, so strong. It does not want to admit fault and it does not want to admit that it was ever wrong about anything. So I just think sometimes it's hard to like put our ego to the side and be like, hey, hey, hey, it's okay. You're allowed to change your mind. That's actually more admirable.

SPEAKER_00: 1:26:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:26:21

You're allowed to say you were wrong. That's more admirable. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:26:25

I've changed my mind.

SPEAKER_02: 1:26:26

Yeah. Okay. So this one is a really, really, really, really tough one, but diversify your sources. Ooh, yeah. Be careful of the I Did My Research illusion. Let's say you go down a rabbit hole, you read all the articles, you watch all the videos, and you feel like you've thought deeply about it, but all your research came from people who already agree with you. It feels like critical thinking, but it's actually confirmation bias because you're unknowingly sometimes gathering information that supports what you already believe. If you want to do that more thoughtfully, more intentionally, you're going to have to deliberately look for disconfirming evidence, not just collecting evidence for your side. I'm going to give an example because earlier when I was doing some of my rabbit holes, one of the questions that I asked was, is fluoride good for your teeth? If you Google that, it's going to be all the research that's saying that it's good for you. If you change your wording and say, Is too much fluoride bad for your teeth, you're going to find scientific research and evidence supporting that. I've been guilty of this, where you Google something and there's like, see, see, look, it says it right here. But then you Google the other side of it, and then it's like, oh, but then it also says this. So you almost have to expose yourself to perspectives and research that you don't agree with. And this is kind of where I wanted to touch on like the political algorithm that you we were talking about earlier, like where you are creating this echo chamber of people who believe you or who believe the same things that you believe, and you only follow people that believe like that. I have had to stop myself from deleting people before because they disagreed with something I said or because I disagreed with something they said. Think of all the people right now who are like, if you believe this, go ahead and delete me. Oh my gosh, yes. Go ahead and delete me. You're doing me a favor. This happened recently where I like wanted to delete somebody because they said something so out of pocket that I'm like, I can't support that. But then I was like, wait a minute, I'm doing it. I'm deleting someone because I don't like what they had to say. And I think that that's an important thing for us to remember. You're only creating even more of an echo chamber if you're muting and deleting anybody who doesn't agree with you. That's crazy.

SPEAKER_00: 1:29:03

And I've been so guilty of that. Yeah. But again, I think about that time when I acted out in that way and where I was mentally and emotionally and even physically. And it was not well. And well, and I'm go ahead. No, go ahead. No, you go ahead.

SPEAKER_02: 1:29:29

I just I wanted to add to that that in the last couple of years, you and I have listened to people that we probably never would have given the time of day before. And I'm talking like podcasts where we're like, we were, I thought we were supposed to hate this person and I actually really like what they have to say. And I don't agree with everything that they have to say, but they make some really good points. And I kind of agree with this part, and they're not as bad as I thought they were, you know. If you follow people across the political spectrum, not to argue, but to understand how they think, it keeps your mind agile, it prevents echo chamber brain rot, and it prevents confirmation bias. And it might be uncomfortable, but that's the point. A comfort zone is a beautiful place, but nothing grows there. So I think it is okay to follow people you disagree with. All right, evaluate your sources and the motives. Ask who's saying this and why. What do they gain if I believe it? And are their primary sources or is this just opinions being repeated? So what I always say is like, follow the money. Like if they're quoting studies, like who do you really think that a pharmaceutical company is going to put a study out that says their drug is not safe?

SPEAKER_00: 1:30:58

Also, do you think a pharmaceutical company is going to put out studies where there are, let's say, okay, holistic practices such as plant medicine that has lifelong benefits? Are they going to put studies into that?

unknown: 1:31:17

No.

SPEAKER_00: 1:31:17

No, because it doesn't make them money.

SPEAKER_02: 1:31:20

Do you know how much money it costs to do research and studies? How much and to have them published millions and millions and millions of dollars. So a lot of times, these other Practices that are not owned by billion-dollar corporations don't have the money or the resources to conduct the studies that they would like to conduct. There have been people who have tried to make studies happen and they've run out of money and they don't get funding and they don't get grants. And it's like not a simple one-year process. Sometimes, I mean, they've been trying to get MDMA off the scheduled drug list for how many years? Like this has been going on since the 90s.

SPEAKER_00: 1:32:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:32:05

And it has taken decades of research and funding and people backing them up and fundraisers and grants. Like that is not an easy thing to do. But if you are a billion-dollar company, you can pay for the fucking science.

SPEAKER_00: 1:32:21

And it be in your favor.

SPEAKER_02: 1:32:22

And it 100%. They wouldn't publish it if it wasn't.

SPEAKER_00: 1:32:27

I think about um, I don't remember what season it was, but when you talked about the MDMA study on Oprah. I feel like that was season one. That was probably season one. Yeah. And can you kind of just like wiki notes it?

SPEAKER_02: 1:32:44

Oh God. Um, so Oprah did an episode where she talked about how MDMA put holes in your brain. They did the study on monkeys. Um, these monkeys ended up dying. Was it monkeys or rats? It was monkeys. Okay. We'd have to go back and find that episode. That was a rabbit hole I went down a long time ago. Um, and they showed these brain scans of these holes in the brain, which all of this was debunked, but she never came out and said that the information from that episode was not factual.

SPEAKER_00: 1:33:18

And what was wrong?

SPEAKER_02: 1:33:19

Well, so much was wrong. Number one, so MDMA, the long version of it is like methyl dias, something, something, something. Yeah. But it is very similar to meth. Not actively. The word. They were giving them meth. It wasn't MDMA. It wasn't MDMA. They were giving these monkeys meth. Not only that, but a typical safe dose of MDMA is between 80 and 120 milligrams. Okay. Okay. That's how much meth they were giving these monkeys. And a typical dose of meth is like five milligrams. Oh. So they were fucking killing these monkeys with meth. It was not MDMA. And the other thing that was debunked is this brain scan showing holes. This person wouldn't be alive if those holes were actually holes. So all of that was debunked, but never corrected. Corrected. But that is the narrative that everybody ran with.

SPEAKER_00: 1:34:28

Well, it's interesting that you bring it up because I know somebody who is a nurse and she literally brought up MDMA and she's like, well, they put holes in your brain. And I wanted to say something so badly, but again, it's hard to have a conversation with somebody who is dead set on being one way. So no matter what I say, I it's it's pointless. And I and then it's like you feel like you have to put a muzzle on yourself because they're openly talking about something. And that happens a lot too, where I feel like people are so open to talk about where they're at, but they're unwilling to talk and listen about where the other person's at. They just assume there's a lot of assumptions going on that they know where you're at and they don't. And again, it's like to group people in as they're this or that. Oh my gosh, you're doing people such a disservice.

SPEAKER_02: 1:35:33

If I'm quiet in the conversation, you can probably go ahead and assume that I don't agree with what you're saying. I just don't know how to say it.

SPEAKER_00: 1:35:41

Ooh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:35:43

Because if we're on the same page, I can have some really good, not even the same page. It doesn't even have to be the same page. Because I have had conversations with people that I don't necessarily agree with, and they have been very good conversations. Yes. But yeah, no, a lot of people will just assume and talk out loud in front of me. And I'm like, that is crazy that you would say that right in front of me, and you have no idea where I stand on that issue. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:36:09

Okay. My personal favorite is people assume because of the color of my skin and my ethnicity, they assume everywhere I lie. And again, you might not be as um for diversity as what you think, if that's what you think about people of color.

SPEAKER_02: 1:36:31

Can I say a stereotype that I feel like I fit into for a long time? Yeah, sure. So I have been doing pink hair literally since I met my husband 20 years ago, on and off. It has been, I have like always dreamed of having pink hair. So I will go on and off. Pink hair, rainbow hair, purple hair, blue hair. And he finally said something to me. He was like, it just it's giving white angry liberal. And I was like, all right, I hear you and I see it now. And so I think that just made people assume. Yeah. And I hate that because it's like such a fucking stereotype because I just like the color pink.

SPEAKER_00: 1:37:21

Well, and I and I also love when I see somebody who's like really tatted out and they have like a septum ring and they're a Christian or they're gay and they're a Christian or breaking those stereotypes. They break these stereotypes. And I'm like, I love that. So I think you should stand in it.

SPEAKER_02: 1:37:41

I was gonna say, in a way, it kind of makes me want to do it anyway. Because I'm like, don't you put me in the box? I didn't, I didn't put myself in that box. Right. Like pink's been my favorite color my whole life. I have dreamed of having gray hair one day so I can just dye it pink all over. My God, you would eat that up. Oh my God. Okay, sorry, sorry. So back to like the follow the money, follow the influence. Like, I think that that's really important to understand that like not all the science is going to be as accurate as you think because it's biased. It's being paid for for by people who want you to believe a certain way. And there are a lot of things that they can do to sway the results, you know?

unknown: 1:38:24

Yep.

SPEAKER_00: 1:38:24

Just saying.

SPEAKER_02: 1:38:26

Just saying. What was also interesting about that, that is not a conspiracy, by the way, that was debunked and these people lost their jobs because they fucked up so bad. Oh shit. It was like a big thing. So that's not speculation. That's fact. Fact. Okay, learn basic logic and fallacies. This one, it's hard. You don't need to be a philosopher, but there are logical fallacies. I had to Google this, and I'm gonna invite other people to do this on their own. Look up the 10 logical fallacies, what they are and what they mean. There are examples of this, and they're called like the straw man, ad hominem, slippery slopes. There are examples of these if you Google this information. It's like learning the language of a narcissist. Oh shit. And once you know the language and the way that they word things, you can pick it up. Like you're you're you've like already worked on your pattern recognition. So then you can be like, hold on a minute. They're using the straw man strategy here. I can see it. And so this doesn't feel right to me. So it's it literally is like learning what gaslighting is, learning what triangulation is. Equip yourself with this information so you can see it when it's happening in real time. I don't know enough about that to go on a tangent, but it makes me want to learn.

SPEAKER_00: 1:39:53

Okay. Another rabbit hole.

SPEAKER_02: 1:39:54

Stay curious, not cynical. Critical thinking isn't about being a skeptic of everything, it's about withholding certainty until there's a reason for it. Healthy skepticism asks, could this be true? It's not, this is definitely false. Curiosity keeps the door open. So curiosity is not the same as skepticism. Practice in real life. Try critical thinking repetition. When someone tells you a shocking story, fact check it. Like I did with the litter box in the high schools. The shock value in that. Like if something sounds unbelievable, it might be. So fact check it. When you feel a strong emotion, whether it's online or in real life, pause. Take a breath. Walk away if you need to. It is even okay to say, Let me let me get back to you on that. I don't know where I stand on that. You're presenting a different piece of the puzzle that I didn't know was there, and I need to process this information. Let me get back to you. All right. Get comfortable with uncertainty. I think we already said this. You can say I don't know without shame. Like saying I don't know is actually it it's kind of a flex. Like I get onto my 13-year-old about this all the time because he is his confidence is through the roof, even when he is wrong. And it is so infuriating the amount of arguments I get in with a 13-year-old. Okay, well, I am getting Because he's like, Yeah, it is true. I read it. And I'm like, did you research it? Did how do you know that's true? Because it's not, Austin. It's not.

SPEAKER_00: 1:41:41

I feel this with a six-year-old, and he'll be like, This is what this says. And I'm like, bro, you don't even know how to read. Fuck, what the fuck?

SPEAKER_02: 1:41:54

I love his confidence. I really, really do. But I need him to add a little discernment to it.

SPEAKER_00: 1:42:01

Yeah. And I need my boy to learn how to read.

SPEAKER_02: 1:42:06

Okay. So, like, love the confidence, step it back a notch. Make sure you're right before you die on the hill that you are right. It is okay to say you don't know for sure. Yeah. That is what I've had been having to teach him lately. Um, and then the last one, reflect and recalibrate. Every once in a while, audit your own beliefs. Oh, this is a really good practice. And we did this in our Patreon group chat. What is something you believed five years ago that you no longer believe? And I think that's a really good way to track your growth and to keep your ego from fossilizing. So, with that, I think we can probably end this, but I want to ask that question to both of us. I don't want to say end this episode. I want to, there is going to be a part two, and this is going to be the rabbit hole. That wasn't even a rabbit hole. The part two is the part that you have no idea about and the history of propaganda, the father of propaganda, why it works so well, and then these clinical and psychological studies that have been done to prove how effective propaganda is. And this all goes in line with like critical thinking. I think if we can work on our critical thinking skills and remember what overrides them, we can become immune to propaganda. We can recognize it when we see it, and we can realize that this is not information that I need to share because I am using my own discernment to say, I don't know if that's true or not. And it's not information that I want to be spreading. Because at this point, propaganda is not just something done by the government or by ad agencies or marketing agencies. We're all doing it because we're all spreading the misinformation and spreading the propaganda. Whether it's misinformation or not, you're kind of playing a role in it without even knowing it. So I think that that will be an important episode. And it'll kind of fuck with your heads a little bit. Can't we? In a good way. So tell me something, Christine, or a couple of things that five years ago you believed that now you don't.

SPEAKER_00: 1:44:35

Um, okay. So a big one is um, I think the biggest one that stands out is, you know, in 2020 was when I that was a like late election, and in the morning I woke up, I think, and I I I cried because I was like, I don't want Trump to win. And if Trump is gonna win, we're gonna have to move away. And I was very extreme in my thinking, and it was very um, it came from a very emotional place. And I think the change has been being able to find um emotional, more emotional regulation when I am making decisions and forming my beliefs and opinions around things. But the other thing is um that I was so black and white that the things that I was doing were good and the things that somebody else was doing was evil. And so I think I've gotten so much better at um being able to find gray and hold nuance in things. And it's it helped me in this election because I wasn't coming from such an emotional place and I was able to listen to people that I thought that I hated, even if I still didn't agree with th certain things that they said or where they were at. And I felt like it a lot of um my opinions now come from just a more just grounded place, not so emotionally reactive and thinking that like I'm right, this is wrong, being like, I don't know. I'm not sure. I'm gonna find out, I'm gonna listen to something that makes me uncomfortable, I'm gonna I'm gonna listen to somebody I don't agree with and still be able to like not lose my shit. And before I could not have said that.

SPEAKER_02: 1:46:33

I've learned a lot of shit from people that I used to refuse to listen to.

unknown: 1:46:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:46:38

So what would you say your answer is?

SPEAKER_02: 1:46:40

Well, I have the first one is an obvious one. I think before I ever did my first mushroom journey, I was very much like drugs are bad and Kay. Uh not necessarily because I think I started doing my own like holistic journey before that. Like after my daughter was born, I kind of got into cannabis a little bit for my anxiety. And then it that was like the gateway to open up. And then I opened up about that. Let me tell you something that like has kind of it triggered me before. And now I'm like, yeah, you know what? Yeah, yeah. What else am I into? I when I posted that we were doing this podcast, one of my old friends was like, What new thing are you doing now? Because I was constantly like, I opened up about my cannabis use and we had a podcast about cannabis, not you and I, but I had a caught podcast about cannabis. Right. And then a couple years later, I'm talking about psychedelics and opened up about that on my Instagram. And so when she said that, at first I was like, what the fuck? That makes me feel really shitty. You know, like, what new thing are you on to now? What are you doing now? Now I'm like, yeah, because I am constantly changing my mind and open to new information. And I can't imagine going back to 10 years ago when I was so closed off and rigid in my thinking that I would have shut the door to the possibility of where I am now in life. And I can't imagine that. I love where I am in life right now.

SPEAKER_00: 1:48:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:48:28

And to think that I might have been stuck as that very depressed wife with three kids with an alcoholic husband, like that makes me sick to my stomach to think that like there is a change, there's the thing that could have held me back would have been to not have an open mind. Obviously, my thoughts on psychedelics have changed. And then another thing, and I'm gonna say this because I do think that this could be an episode that we talk about later. I used to consider myself a feminist. And then I listened to this podcast about maternal feminism and how very different it is than the feminism that I considered right, and it kind of aligns with where I am now more, and it's not a side of feminism that is talked about because it's almost otherized in the feminist community.

SPEAKER_00: 1:49:29

I think that modern feminists have left out maternal feminists 1000% in this movement.

SPEAKER_02: 1:49:38

And I think we should talk about it. I would love to because that is something that I have completely shifted and changed my mind on. And I also want to say I am open to changing it again, because isn't that kind of the point?

SPEAKER_00: 1:49:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:49:54

Of life is constantly growing and evolving and changing. And I would think that if I was 70 years old and and my thought process was like, I haven't changed a bit. Since I was 20 years, I've been the same person my whole life. I don't know if I want that to be my life. I I mean I I know I don't want that to be my life.

SPEAKER_00: 1:50:21

It wouldn't be your life.

unknown: 1:50:22

Because look.

SPEAKER_02: 1:50:23

Once you start doing all this shit, you can't go back. Like Pandora's box is open. There's no going back in.

SPEAKER_00: 1:50:30

I like to say that uh um I'm awake, not woke.

SPEAKER_02: 1:50:33

I like that. I like that. So I again And I would consider us the awakeners, not the awokeners.

SPEAKER_01: 1:50:42

Yes, I love that.

SPEAKER_02: 1:50:44

I love that. Okay, so if you made it this far, congratulations. I say you put this stuff to practice, put it to use. Um, and please listen to the next episode because it is going to blow your fucking minds. I can't wait to blow yours. I know. And I love this ribside because the whole time I'm like, I know. All right. Stay curious, be open. We'll see you guys on the other side.

SPEAKER_00: 1:51:12

Bye.