99 | Context, Courage, and the Cost of Speaking Up

The temperature online feels louder, sharper, and less forgiving by the day. So we decided to do the uncomfortable thing: talk honestly about context, courage, and how to disagree without dehumanizing each other. We trace the spiral from viral clips to moral panic, the way empathy gets weaponized as a political pose, and why whataboutism is the fastest way to kill a real conversation. Along the way, we admit our own fears about posting, the hives and shaky hands that come with saying something unpopular, and the relief of finally choosing brave expression over silence.

We go deep on the Charlie Kirk controversy to show how quotes mutate when pulled from their setting, then widen the lens to the broader ecosystem: media echo chambers, confirmation bias, and the illusion that we’re all reacting to the same facts. We talk about listening to people we disagree with, seeking nonpartisan reporting, and recognizing when someone is committed to misunderstanding you. Bringing in Africa Brooke’s 'The Third Perspective,' we share practical tools for speaking with integrity in an age that punishes nuance.

The most personal turn comes with autism, Tylenol, vaccines, and the line between inquiry and taboo. One of us is parenting a child on the spectrum, and we center the harsh realities many families face while arguing for compassionate and curiosity instead of ridicule. We also examine pharma’s cultural footprint ~ direct-to-consumer ads, quick prescriptions, and the subtle ways a system conditions us to medicate first and ask later ~ without throwing out the real benefits of Western medicine.

If you’ve felt yourself go quiet to avoid the pile-on, this conversation is for you. Take a breath, step outside the algorithm, and come sit in the messy middle where context lives and curiosity survives. If this resonates, follow us on Patreon and share with a friend who values nuance and holds space for multiple perspectives.

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Chapters

• 0:00 Getting Comfortable With Discomfort
• 2:40 Vitriol, Echo Chambers, And Social Fear
• 5:15 Posting Through Hives: Finding A Voice
• 7:20 Everything Is Political—Must It Be?
• 10:00 Old-School Liberal Values Reframed
• 14:00 Food, Class, And Missing Each Other
• 18:10 Fear Of Speaking And Social Policing
• 21:10 Brave Expression: Africa Brooke’s Lens
• 23:50 Listening To Understand vs. To Be Offended
• 26:40 Context Matters: The Charlie Kirk Controversies
• 31:50 Empathy, Politics, And Misquotes
• 35:10 Debating Abortion Without Dehumanizing
• 38:00 Civil Rights Act, Claims, And Nuance
• 41:20 Media Diets And Manufactured Narratives
• 44:40 Nonpartisan Sources And Cancellations
• 48:00 Tribalism, Horseshoe Theory, And Whataboutism
• 51:40 Emotional Regulation Before Speaking
• 53:40 Tylenol, Vaccines, Autism: Asking Hard Questions
• 59:20 Lived Experience: Parenting On The Spectrum
• 1:04:10 Compassion For Families In Crisis
• 1:07:50 Factors, Not Certainties, And Open Inquiry
• 1:11:50 RFK’s Path: Mercury, Law, And Evidence
• 1:16:00 Expertise, Rogan, And Hearing Opponents
• 1:19:40 Pharma Power: Ads, Incentives, And Culture
• 1:24:20 Doctors, Prescriptions, And Pushback

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:32

Let's get comfy. Let's get comfy. Let's get comfy because we're about to get uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_02: 0:44

Is this ever gonna get easier?

SPEAKER_00: 0:46

I hope so. I feel like this it feels like a muscle that we are training and practicing. And um, you know, you are used to not talking about this stuff. Yeah. I'm not necessarily used to talking about this stuff. I'm used to being opinionated, maybe even controversial with some things, but um not like this. Yeah. There's a lot of combativeness in the air right now. So um what is happening?

SPEAKER_02: 1:26

What's happening around social media and just like the world in general right now? Like all of the it's it's like every day we're hit with something else.

SPEAKER_00: 1:38

It feels like Mercury is in the microwave all day, every day, 25-8. 25-8. Yeah. I said that on purpose. I've never heard anybody say that. Yeah, no. 25-8, not 24-7.

SPEAKER_02: 1:54

It is 25-8. Um, yeah, it feels it, uh God, it feels like heavy and insurmountable, but I also think that it is like necessary. And um let me explain what I mean by that. Like, first off, we'll we'll get into this in a second, but like I think what we want to talk about today is um what happened with Charlie Kirk.

SPEAKER_00: 2:25

Um we brushed on it a little bit on I guess what part one.

SPEAKER_02: 2:29

Yeah. Um free speech, opinions, um, context, like context matters, and um doing your own research. Maybe like I guess these are all the things that I want to touch on today, like um doing your own research, news outlets, and like who's paying them to say what. And uh also what just happened, I guess yesterday. Yeah. Um, with the announcement from Trump. Was it yesterday or a couple of days ago?

SPEAKER_00: 3:10

Um, I think it was yes. It was two days ago. Well, and and yesterday, like it's just been a shit storm on social media. And I posted something. I you didn't tell me you were gonna post, and I saw it, and then not only did you post, you posted like a few different things, and that is something that is very unlike you. And like I felt like a proud mom to a child, like who it was did something brave.

SPEAKER_02: 3:41

That's it's what it felt like.

SPEAKER_00: 3:43

Like when you text me, you're like, you should see my hives or you should see my neck and my chest right now.

SPEAKER_02: 3:48

I was so red, I was like shaking, but at this end every time I wanted to like go and delete it because I was like, no, I'm gonna get some pushback. I'm gonna get pushback, people are gonna like cancel me, they're gonna unfollow. I don't care anymore. Yeah, like that's how far, that's how upset I am over this, like silencing people because they feel something different. Like, that's how mad I am. So yeah. So share it. Well, I was just gonna say, like, I think we should touch on that today, too, is like all this stuff about Tylenol and autism and um vaccines, and try to go into that without again like taking the politics out of it and just looking at what is actually happening. It seems like we are living in a world where everything is political when it doesn't have to be. And if you believe this, then you're clearly Republican, and if you believe that, then you're clearly a liberal, like Democrat, like whatever. Like why why is it like that?

SPEAKER_00: 5:06

Well, I do like what you posted because there's this um content creator that we like, uh Laura Timu's.

SPEAKER_02: 5:13

Oh, I thought it was Laura Matsu.

SPEAKER_00: 5:15

Oh, yeah, you're right.

unknown: 5:16

You're right.

SPEAKER_00: 5:17

Timu Laura. Laura Matsu. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And it was like, what a time to be alive. You know, one day you're a liberal because you believe in like organic food and you are anti-big pharma. Yeah. And then the next day you're extreme right because you believe those same things. Yeah. And that's how it feels. Um, and I think that there are a lot of people who are scared to talk who feel the same way where they're like, I'm now extreme right. I've never considered myself extreme right, but now I'm extreme right because I feel this way, and I've kind of always felt this way.

SPEAKER_02: 5:58

We didn't we touched on something a little bit in our last episode, but like how like all of a sudden, like it it used to be the other way around. Yeah. Like it really did.

SPEAKER_00: 6:11

Well, and I've seen we've seen clips of like old school liberals talking, and that's yeah, what they're they're they're saying.

SPEAKER_02: 6:18

Like they are we don't trust big pharma. You should go out and get some fresh air, like, you know, eat healthy foods, like anti-large corporation, exercising, and then now it's like if you say those things, it's offensive. Like I am, I literally sometimes feel like I'm losing my mind.

SPEAKER_00: 6:41

Yeah. Can I, can I, so I shared um, I shared a clip once. This was like, yes, stuff was heavy and definitely divided. I feel like it gets worse and worse over time, but this was probably like a year ago. I posted um, it was a podcast clip just about the importance of eating, like trying to eat as organic as possible and eating like whole whole nutrient dense foods. Like as unprocessed as possible. As unprocessed as possible, you know, whatever. And I got a really hateful, very emotionally charged um DM from somebody I know. And she was like, you know, that's rich of you to say because um you have money and there are people who can't afford it. And I'm like, Yeah, you're fucking right. Um I that's not what I'm trying to say at all. And she made it very political. And I'm like, no, I I wish we all had access to nutrient-dense foods. And what I don't get to say to you is that I have family in the Marshall Islands. Um, my cousin who you met at my wedding, she had gone to the Marshall Islands probably like six months ago, and she was there visiting her parents and her family, and she went to the grocery store because things in Hawaii are incredibly expensive as well. It's very hard to eat healthy in the Marshall Islands. That's who I'm talking about. Um, but to get a bag of grapes was$30. Jesus Christ. And she's somebody who eats healthy and tries to be fit, and that is um, unfortunately, there is a big um diabetes epidemic in the Marshallese population because they do not have access to whole nutrient-dense foods because to ship healthy foods to the Marshall Islands is expensive, and they don't the land that we live on, there's not like farming that they are able to like grow their own like vegetables and fruits and things like that. There's obviously coconuts and breadfruit and things like that, but as a whole, the cheapest option is to eat processed foods. So a lot of Marshallese people are overweight and unhealthy and diabetic. And I would love for that to change, but you're, you know, in my DMs insinuating like I don't know what that means and I don't know what that feels like, and you're policing me. And instead, it could have been an opportunity to have a conversation to be like, yeah, this is a problem. We actually like agree right on it. You're taking it as we don't agree, and you're taking it as like I don't have experience with that, or I like I've just lived this cush life, and you're it's very privileged to say that like eating healthy is good for you.

SPEAKER_02: 9:49

You shouldn't be saying that because not everybody can eat healthy.

SPEAKER_00: 9:52

How crazy is that? And my cousin and I have talked about like what we could do for our community, whether it be education, whether it be, you know, finding opportunities where um Marshallese people are getting access to like a better diet. Like we've talked about that. And again, it's going back to like you're missing ample these opportunities to be able to converse with your friends, families, your neighbors, acquaintances instead of like policing them.

SPEAKER_02: 11:28

Wasn't there around this time there was also like there are these like food bloggers who post like healthy recipes, and somebody posted like a healthy Thanksgiving meal option. And they get a and she was dragged in the comments because like you shouldn't be fat shaming people and you shouldn't be um making people feel bad about what they're eating on Thanksgiving. And people can't afford that, and yeah, and it's like her whole platform is about healthy food and and switching but to like healthier options. That's okay.

SPEAKER_00: 12:06

Well, and it's gotten to a point where even if you try to do the say do the right thing or say the right thing, or you know, again, talk about like here is an alternative, so you're not eating shit, or you know, like trying to maybe provide education or awareness about something, you get fucking murdered online for it. Right. And and labeled and and and judged, and it's just like, I mean, what have we come to? Over everything, it is over everything, and I'm like, we both constantly get thank you for saying this. I'm too scared to say say shit. Yes, that's what happened to me last night.

SPEAKER_02: 12:47

Yeah, like I didn't have any negative engagement. Most of my engagement was through DMs, and most of them were saying, like, thank you for for saying this out loud.

SPEAKER_00: 12:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 13:00

I wish I could say it.

SPEAKER_00: 13:01

Yeah. We also both know people who if they have liked something on the internet, they get verbally attacked by somebody that they know. We do. That is fucking wild to me.

SPEAKER_02: 13:19

And again, I think I have a friend who lost a lifelong friend because she liked an Instagram post.

SPEAKER_00: 13:30

Yeah. And I I think that it's there's got to be a point where there are people like us who are like, all right, we need to talk about this because this is a fucking problem. And somebody's gotta be the one to bridge the gap and to be able to have these conversations. And that's kind of where we're at. And I think we're gonna probably have a lot of conversations about this because it's such a prevalent problem right now. It's every content, every day you get on social media, and it's it's just so much vitriol, and so many people are like, Well, I'm gonna deactivate my social media. I'm not gonna say anything, I'm gonna mute myself and that is very valid, and that is very fair. But that's what I've been doing. Yeah, but I think that there's gotta be somebody who's the people there's gotta be people who are brave enough to be like, you know what? I'm gonna talk. And you if you wanna cancel me, go for it. You want to try to censor me, go for it. You wanna try to police me, go for it. But I don't give a fuck and I'm still going to talk. Even if it's bad, even if you think it's wrong, even if you disagree, you know what? And if I'm wrong about something, which we were on our last episode about empats, um, I will correct myself. Yeah. Like, fuck, but let me be a human.

SPEAKER_02: 15:03

So let me read this page that I came across yesterday.

SPEAKER_00: 15:07

So pumped you're gonna read this.

SPEAKER_02: 15:08

We did talk about this book in our last episode, The Third Perspective. Um, Brave Expression in the Age of Intolerance. It's by Africa Brook. Um, if you don't know who she is, I highly like I think that we should post some um of her podcasts and some of her content for people to find her. Um but uh we both read this book, and there's so many nuggets of wisdom in here.

SPEAKER_00: 15:40

So good. Her her social media content's good, her book is wonderful, her podcast interviews are amazing. She is incredible.

SPEAKER_02: 15:49

Like, do we do we have a crush on her?

SPEAKER_00: 15:51

I totally have a girl crush. I find her fascinating and beautiful inside and out. Yeah, she's she's she's like almost um hypnotizing to listen to her talk.

SPEAKER_02: 16:03

Yes, it's beautiful.

SPEAKER_00: 16:04

Yes, like she's so articulate and well spoken, articulate, kind, and and I love listening to her.

SPEAKER_02: 16:11

She's not like angry, yes. Okay, so this is um oh, I do need my glasses. I'm like, I cannot read this. God, just wait till you hit 40. Just it happens overnight. Um each topic feels like a minefield where one misstep can lead to unintended explosions. When these big topics are fighting for your attention at the same time, it can feel like your single voice might get lost in the noise. But not only that, if you decide to say something, there's usually a big worry that you will be dragged through the streets of social media by your caller if you get it wrong. This is an over this overwhelming feeling is a big reason many of us end up pressing the mute button on our opinions. This is where I begin to worry. Why are we expecting people to be born educated on these topics? Why are we anticipating perfection, demanding the use of language that doesn't offend anyone, and upholding an ideal of political correctness? The reality of being human is that we are inherently imperfect. I would even go as far as to say that every single one of us is politically incorrect by nature. Our nature includes the vulnerability of making mistakes, the grace of growth, and the journey of learning. When I reflect on my own life, it's a lovely jumble of rights and wrongs, of triumphs and tribulations, and of lessons learned both gently and harshly. Every mistake, every misstep was an opportunity for me to grow, to realign, and to progress. And isn't that what being human is all about? Chef's kiss. Chef's kiss. Like I love everything that she says, but I also need everybody to know that this book is not about politics. It really isn't. This is about being brave enough to speak up and how to share your opinions and how to have difficult conversations. Um I think it's also necessary that we say not everybody is willing to be on the other end of that conversation in the same way. So you can't force these conversations with people who are unwilling to listen and committed to misunderstanding you.

SPEAKER_00: 18:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 18:33

And she teaches that in here as well to like use your discernment and know when to speak up and the difference between like self-sabotage and self-censoring, and like just reading the room. Yeah. And knowing when to speak.

SPEAKER_00: 18:50

Something else that I like that she has said. So, like, if somebody is, we are wanting to have these conversations, um, and not everyone is wanting to receive that, um, but she talks a lot about are you listening to try to understand, or are you listening to go right into the conversation to be offended?

SPEAKER_02: 19:11

Oh shit.

SPEAKER_00: 19:13

And I'm like, fuck, that is very true. And I think, you know, people are so stuck on their side that if somebody um disagrees, presents um new information that doesn't align with whatever their side is, that um, you know, maybe wants dialogue or more text, context with the conversation, that there is a lot of um rhetoric that shuts the conversation down.

SPEAKER_02: 19:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 19:51

So that the conversation is just unable to be had. So um I feel like a lot of us are feeling that right now. And because we feel that we then just mute ourselves and just don't use our voice and don't share our opinion because it doesn't feel good to be on the receiving end of that. So it doesn't feel good to be called a racist or you know, classist, ageist, homophobic, fascist, fascist, whatever. All the all the issue. All the issue or all the obias.

unknown: 20:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 20:29

Um, okay, so let's get into like the first thing that happened in and this whole car Charlie Kirk situation, because um, I will admit I um was not aware of who he was until about a year ago. And I didn't listen to Turning Point, but I have listened to him debate several times, and I was always like very impressed with the way that he debated people.

SPEAKER_00: 21:05

And can I say an emphasis on impress, even though there were things that I was like, I don't really agree with you on that. 100%. But I think we need to normalize still being able to listen to somebody or hear somebody when we don't agree, because maybe you're gonna come out of it and be like, oh, you know, you did make a fair point on that.

SPEAKER_02: 21:25

Right. I don't agree with everything you said, but you did bring this up and I didn't think about it that way.

SPEAKER_00: 21:30

And it's still good for me to listen to opposing ideas because that is how I'm gonna evolve and challenge my brain. But yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 21:44

Well, so I think that um a lot of people right now are are kind of like stuck in this like echo chamber of voices that that they agree with, and so they find it very, very hard to believe that like other people think differently when it's like actually no more people think differently than you realize. They've just been silenced, and your echo chamber is just loud with voices that you agree with. Because if they do disagree and they post something or say something, you immediately delete them or block them or mute them. So wouldn't that only like further isolate your echo chamber of only hearing from people who think like you, speak like you? Like you're creating more of a hole.

unknown: 22:36

Yep.

SPEAKER_02: 22:37

Um and I've I am saying that because I've caught myself doing the same thing. Yeah. Muting people that that post something that I don't agree with, or deleting them because I don't want to support their page anymore. Um, I have done a lot less of that in the past year. If anything, I have gotten more curious about where they stand and I will listen if I if if somebody says they're controversial, I want to hear it for myself. I do too. And that makes people uncomfortable because they're like, why would you listen to him? Why would you support him in any way? Like every listen is is a support. And I'm like, I want to hear it for myself. I want to hear it and use my own discernment and form an opinion based on what I believe happened in that conversation, not what the headlines say, not what the memes are saying, not what you're saying, not the article that you read where he was quoted and it was out of context. Because I think people are losing their minds over context right now and misunderstanding things over things that he said and things that he said are being very misquoted, and if they're even if they're quoted, they're still being used out of context. And I need to, I feel like I need to say this so many times. Context absolutely matters.

SPEAKER_00: 24:05

Didn't you see a post where um somebody said it didn't matter?

SPEAKER_02: 24:12

I've seen several posts.

SPEAKER_00: 24:14

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_02: 24:15

I have seen several posts where they're like, you guys are saying we're using his quotes out of context, but like, then don't say the things. Like you shouldn't be saying anything that can be used out of context. I'm like, that's human. Every conversation ever, something that you say can be misunderstood and heard and used out of context to spin the narrative.

SPEAKER_00: 24:42

A hundred percent.

SPEAKER_02: 24:43

In every situation, in every conversation. There was one guy who was just like, if he was such a good debater, then how are we miss how are we misunderstanding his quotes? Like you guys keep saying he was, you know, they were used out of context, but like if he was such a good debater, it wouldn't have been used out of context. You're missing the context. Right. Like it's driving me insane.

SPEAKER_00: 25:07

Can you provide like an example?

SPEAKER_02: 25:09

Yeah. So I think the thing that like a lot of people are running with right now, and the one that like has probably driven me crazy crazy the most is what he said about empathy. Um he's being quoted as saying, I don't have it in front of me, so I'm like not trying to misquote him, but do the research. Like you've probably seen it a hundred times this past few weeks, like where empathy is a made-up new age term. I much prefer sympathy and compassion over empathy. Empathy means you are feeling what that other person feelings and whatever.

SPEAKER_00: 25:48

Well, then he also said, um, Clinton used it. It it's he he felt like it was a form of political emotional manipulation because Clinton would say, I know how you feel, I know how you feel, but he can't say that because he doesn't know how you feel.

SPEAKER_02: 26:08

Right. So people using the part where he's saying like empathy is a made-up new age term, are using that against him, and then people are like, that's not the full quote. So then they're saying the rest of it. And I'm like, again, that's out of context because what he was referring to when he said that, if you listen to the entire thing, which is very hard to find these days because people are just posting clips, they're like, Nope, he said it, he said it, no, he said it. Listen to the minutes before he said that, because that's what he was referring to. He was referring to it being empathy being used as a political tactic, a political weapon. Clinton in his administration used it to gain votes because he was like, I empathize with you. Yeah, how can he though?

SPEAKER_00: 26:56

Right, right.

SPEAKER_02: 26:59

He he's never experienced the things that you guys have exper had that that people voting for him have experienced. Like, I'm not saying he hasn't gone through some shit, but like to use it as a political weapon is what he was saying. I would much rather sympathy and compassion.

unknown: 27:16

Right.

SPEAKER_02: 27:17

So it really grinds my gears. Yes, because I am like that person who's gonna go down the rabbit hole and and listen to it for myself. Well, you want the truth, nobody else is doing that.

SPEAKER_00: 27:29

You want the truth, and you can still leave and be like, okay, I did my research, I found the truth, and I still disagree with him. Like, again, the whether you agree or disagree is kind of irrelevant. Yeah. And um, you know, I've seen people where he his his stance on abortion. Yeah. And I have been somebody who my entire life have been pro-choice. Same. And I still am. But hearing his stances on abortion, you know, he made this point where he said, um, you know, I feel like it's murder, and that's valid for him to feel that way. Um, and if you were a pregnant woman and you got murdered, that would be a double homicide because you had a baby, baby in your belly. So how is abortion not the same thing? I'm like, you know, I've never thought about it that way. I still am pro-choice, but like it's a valid point. It's a valid point. And people are justifying not having empathy for somebody who believed that. And I'm like, where are we gonna go as human beings if we are justifying someone getting murdered in front of our very eyes because they said things that they didn't agree with, and their whole entire platform was um to go and have dialogue with people he intentionally knew would not agree with him. Yeah, I think that's that's kind of dangerous waters to go down. Um, the other thing I've seen is um there's a clip of him getting angry and he's getting off of his seat. Yeah. And he says, I'm just I'm gonna say the word chink.

SPEAKER_02: 29:21

He's like yelling at this guy.

SPEAKER_00: 29:23

And I've seen it with people who I follow. Yeah. And they use that clip.

SPEAKER_02: 29:28

They're like, listen to him saying this about somebody who's Asian. He's calling him a derogatory term. Derogatory word.

SPEAKER_00: 29:35

It's a person.

SPEAKER_02: 29:36

Yes.

SPEAKER_00: 29:37

That is his name.

SPEAKER_02: 29:38

He was on the panel that day.

SPEAKER_00: 29:40

Yes, he's a Turkish American commentator, and he would, I think they were they were in argument and got heated and got disagreement. He was not calling somebody a name, he was calling someone by their actual name. Yeah. And that is a fact. Wasn't a derogatory word. It wasn't a derogatory word. So, you know, um the other thing that he talks about that has gotten taken taken out of context is the Civil Rights Act.

SPEAKER_02: 30:12

Yeah. So I've seen several people say that. Like he didn't believe in the Civil Rights Act. Not what he said.

SPEAKER_00: 30:19

It's not what he said. Um, he one, he he talked about how he wanted uh the black community to focus on um, there were a lot of fatherless homes, and he wanted he believed in having everyone having like that nuclear family, and uh, you know, a mother and a father, and and them being in the home and parenting together, and he wanted people to, you know, get married and have children, and that's okay to believe that. I don't I don't know why that's controversial. Um uh but he talked about how he believed that the Civil Rights Act needed to happen, but where it had gone and it has it has gone, has taken away from the original the black community. And I don't disagree with that. Um because now it's the Civil Rights Act includes a lot of the trans movement in on that, and um I think that it it is worth questioning and having a conversation. Um, he was saying that it was taking away from civil rights with the black community. Right. Not that he was against black people. Um, so again, I I feel like we really throw the word racist around and bigot around. Um, and it's because of that, it gets thrown around so l loosely with clips and and and quotes taken out of context that it's lost its meaning. Um, and I don't, I don't, I don't like that. So, like I said, the point is not whether you agree with him or disagree with him. The point is that like we are allowed to disagree with people and still treat them like human beings.

SPEAKER_02: 32:17

I think another thing to say, I think a lot of people do feel like they're very well informed. They're like, no, I read I read this article and it did show clips of him saying this. And again, I think that's where it's like if you think that your wherever you are getting your information from isn't affiliated with a political side and their narrative is very, very different, like you have a lot of trust, my friend. Yeah, you have a lot of trust in what they're telling us. I saw something the other day, and this like kind of like made so much sense to me. Um she's an actress, she played in the good place, she did an interview where she said, you know, what's crazy is I think that like there's so much divide because we think we're all seeing the same thing and having very different reactions to it, when in reality we're seeing completely different stories about the same event about the same event, we're seeing very different sides and very different narratives, and we're having very different reactions to the same event. We're not seeing the same stories, we're we're not. That's something I have like realized a lot this past year because I have removed my like I don't watch the news. Yeah, like I'm not reading headlines. If I see one pop up, I'm gonna go and dig and figure out like whatever what other people are saying about it. I'm gonna find the original content. Um, I don't know. It just, it just it irks me because it's like you but you're trusting this news outlet who's very, very politically driven to put out stuff that aligns with the side.

SPEAKER_00: 34:14

Right. Well, so I see a lot, well, you watch Fox News, and I'm like, okay, I don't watch like they're saying I'm not in this conversation. Right, right, right. But this person watches Fox News, and I'm like, okay, but you watch CNN. Right.

SPEAKER_02: 34:33

Like Can I tell you something somebody said to me?

SPEAKER_00: 34:36

Two birds of the same feather, you know, they're just opposite. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 34:42

They said, I do watch both sides of the news. I just refuse to watch Fox News because they lie. I was like, wait, what? Wait, what? You don't think the other ones lie? Right. You don't think the other ones lie? Yeah. I'm not saying you should listen to Fox News or CNN. I'm saying there is a truth somewhere between the two, and it is not on either side. Right. You gotta find it, you gotta find like nonpartisan, like journalists, independent journalists. You've got to find people who aren't being bought and paid for. Um breaking points is is a good one. I just told you about that the other day. It's like two people. Um, one is Republican, one is Democrat, and they meet in the middle and they have these conversations. They're not bought by a, they're not sponsored by anybody, and they want to keep it that way because they don't want anybody telling them what they can and can't say.

SPEAKER_00: 35:44

I love that.

SPEAKER_02: 35:45

I also want to recognize that there have been a lot of people who have been canceled from or fired from their jobs because they don't want to say what they're being told to say anymore. Don't you have a list of that?

SPEAKER_00: 36:02

I do. And these are people on the left and the right who have been canceled by their own party. Um Andrew Yang, Tulsi Gabbard, Tommy Larin. Tommy Larin was um a Republican commentator. She still is, but she got canceled because she was pro-choice. So the right didn't like that, and they canceled her. Um Tulsi, did I say Tulsi Gabbard? RFK, Tucker Carlson, Candace Owen, Marjorie Taylor Green, Joe Rogan, Elon Musk. So Joe Rogan. I've seen this a lot. People will say the left needs their own Joe Rogan. Someone like Joe Rogan, okay? And I'm like, y'all had him. His name was Joe Rogan. Uh, he was a huge Bernie Sanders supporter.

SPEAKER_02: 36:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 36:59

Big Bernie guy. Y'all didn't like him. You know, people, we've gotten a lot of hate because the person that we have most aligned with has been RFK. RFK was on the left, you guys. He was a Democrat. Yeah. Tulsi Gabbard. Also loved Tulsi Gabbard. I liked Tulsi Gabbard back in 2020. Yeah. Um, she debated Kamala, and I thought she destroyed her. Um got canceled.

SPEAKER_02: 37:35

Because she's anti-war? Yeah. Like that's crazy.

SPEAKER_00: 37:39

Yeah. Yeah. So it's it's it's both sides, is the point that I think we are trying to make. And there has to be some voices in the middle willing to call out the tribalism, the echo chambers, the hypocrisy um of both. Both sides. And I think that's okay. Um, and we kind of came into this knowing like this was gonna ruffle some feathers a little bit, but you know, this podcast name, see you on the other side, I think it's the meaning has become elevated because of where we are in our country right now, and um what we are seeing just go down just on the internet, this this hate and division and and you know, I don't know what we're gonna what we're gonna do about it and what our role and our purpose is and what we're gonna do with our voice.

SPEAKER_02: 38:45

But so you talked, didn't you talk a little bit in the last episode about like whataboutism? Yeah. You did. Um I've seen this, it keeps happening. It it literally keeps happening because it happened, um happened with Charlie Kirk. The oh, you're gonna post about this. Well, what about what about the kids who are the mass shootings in in the schools? Like, okay, that's a separate issue.

SPEAKER_00: 39:16

What was the post that you saw the other day? It was something about was it about Tylenol or autism? And then it was like, well, what about mass shootings?

SPEAKER_02: 39:25

Yes. That's what I'm saying. Like it happened again, and so now it's like it's like, oh, you all speak up when it comes to Tylenol, but I didn't see any of you all talking about these mass shootings. Like it's like, what about this? What about this? We can't fucking keep up.

SPEAKER_00: 39:41

Yeah, we can't keep up, and I and I do want to say, like, I have had a harder time with talking to people on the left. Um, having these types of conversations, I've actually had an easier time to peep talking to people on the right.

SPEAKER_02: 39:59

Um that's shocking to me because I've witnessed it too.

SPEAKER_00: 40:04

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 40:05

It's been sh incredibly shocking.

SPEAKER_00: 40:07

Yeah. So um a lot of conversations where I've, again, this is a party that I've once belonged to where I started to say things about, you know, um, censoring RFK, um, not feeling like we get to have a choice in the primaries. Um, and Kamala just got it lying about um Biden's cognitive um health. Um again, I feel like the left has become the party where it's now kind of like the elites and pro-big pharma and pro-big corporation. Corporate pro-big corporation. And so, like, again, it's like if you're saying, I want everyone of all socioeconomic backgrounds to be able to have access to, you know, clean water, whole and nutrient-dense foods, that's like a self-care. Yeah, that's a that's a right-wing thing. Um, but when I've had these conversations with people on the left, it's been, well, Trump did this. Well, what about Trump? What about Trump? And I'm like, I'm talking about my concerns and my issues with the party that I belong to that had nothing to do with Trump. It had nothing to do with Republicans, it had nothing to do with conservatives, it had to do with my party that I once felt aligned with, that I no longer feel aligned with. Um, and where I'm going with this is I feel like kind of tying back to the horseshoe theory, the hatred for him has been so strong that it's really hard to have a conversation because that is the only focus. And if you say something about RFK, it's like, oh, that quack, okay, he um he killed a bear and did this and he thought he had a worm in his head. Yeah, and I'm just like, it's I can't Which by the way, do people not know that parasites are real? But I'm like, I can't talk because I'm gonna say this Trump derangement syndrome, and I'm gonna say RFK derangent derangement syndrome is so fucking real. And I'm sure Kamala derangement syndrome is so real. Yeah. But it is the person that you are you hate so much, it's gotten to the point where you've become what you hate. And um I have this quote whether you're shouting in the name of equality or tradition, if you can't tolerate disagreement, if you silence and dehuman dehumanize, you're not on the opposite ends of a spectrum. You are holding hands at the bottom of the horseshoe. And it's it's been it's been frustrating to have these types of conversations because, again, I feel like doing those things, the whataboutism, well, Trump did this, um, you're a racist, you're a bigot, you're homophobic, you're transphobic. It has been a beautiful way to shut down conversation and to shut down people and to police people.

SPEAKER_02: 43:48

It's silencing a lot of people.

SPEAKER_00: 43:51

And it's I think it's a form of narcissism and manipulation. So again, you think that he is that. You think that Trump is that, and you might not be wrong, but you are doing it too. So there are people who are like, well, he should be doing this and they should be doing this, and you should be doing this. And I'm like, Meanwhile, if your house and your life is a dumpster fire. Yeah. But you think you have all of the answers to all the world problems, to all the world problems where you have to shut down every conversation. Meanwhile, like, I know you are not okay.

SPEAKER_02: 44:36

I would not trade lives with you, right?

SPEAKER_00: 44:38

So it's it's it's hard to have those conversations with those types of people who are very angry and very emotional, and I think again, dysregulated. When you come from that place, like your vision may not be as clear as what you think it is. And that's a fact, though.

SPEAKER_02: 44:57

Yeah, that is like a psychological fact that when you are so angry and spiraling about stuff, your amygdala is overpowering your brain. You are not thinking clearly or rationally or critically, like you are acting out of anger and fear and irration, and there's no like that is a psychological fact.

SPEAKER_00: 45:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 45:31

Like that's not like a political statement.

SPEAKER_00: 45:34

Right, right. Can we get into the Tylenol of it all?

SPEAKER_02: 45:38

Yeah, the Tylenol of it.

SPEAKER_00: 45:40

Because I want to talk about the fact that again, it doesn't matter if you agree or disagree, okay? That's not the point. But I have seen people on social media with my very own eyes who are pregnant and are downing bottles of Tylenol to prove a point. And I'm like, that is not the flex that you think it is, because again, you are doing something from an emotional place, very dysregulated place, very dysregulated place, and we have to get to a point where we are able to hear a bad idea, an idea we wholeheartedly disagree with, and still be able to stay grounded.

SPEAKER_02: 46:35

There's a guy I follow who talks about this. He was like, You guys don't see me talk about political stuff when it happens because I sit and wait. I sit and wait, I let it settle, I figure out what's true, what's not true, and I'm not gonna speak on it until like I am like I am sure that I know what's happening, and I am coming from a place of like emotional regulation. And I I actually like I really love and respect that. Like, it is okay to take a step back before you react. Yeah, we've been talking about this from the very beginning of our podcast, like how when we started our healing journeys, we were very reaction, like we reacted very quickly to things. And I think that like through all the healing that we have done through psychedelics, it kind of gives people this break in between the reaction where they have a chance to respond thoughtfully and peacefully and regulated without immediately overreacting. So that's kind of what we're talking about here. Like I this whole autism Tylenol vaccine conundrum is not a conspiracy theory. I have a son on the spectrum, he was diagnosed at eight. This so this is like almost 10 years ago. Um, I would consider him high functioning. Uh my husband high functioning. Um we have had to use an IEP for my son before through COVID because it was very difficult for him to pass middle school. Um, the way that we had to do middle school with the um NTI being home and without his like, you know, routines and schedule. Um, but I know since we found out that he was on the spectrum, I joined Facebook groups, I read books, I immersed myself in this, like in these like online support groups. I never really participated in them. It was kind of like I'm gonna sit back and like gather information. Um, it was a learning experience for me, but a lot of these moms, and I think this is another reason I never really like participated in the groups, because a lot of these moms have issues and very little support, and their children are very low functioning, and their quality of life, the parents' quality of life, is has gone downhill because they are pouring every ounce of themselves into supporting their children and picking up their lives and moving so their children have a better school and have better access to support and are quitting their job so they can stay home with their children because no one else can, and because they can't go to daycare or school. This it like broke my heart and made me feel guilty at the same time that I had my own issues because they didn't seem to even compare to what these other families have gone through. I know people who have children who are severely autistic. It's heartbreaking.

unknown: 50:32

Got it.

SPEAKER_02: 50:33

Why am I getting emotional?

SPEAKER_00: 50:34

Because it's heavy.

SPEAKER_02: 50:36

And I've I They have been fighting for answers for so long because this isn't the type of cute and fun autism that everybody is like using these days where they're self-diagnosing themselves because they're a little shy and a little weird sometimes. Like, this isn't what you see on Love on the Spectrum. This is like tearing families apart. Like the statistics of families like getting a divorce in these families is like very high because there's they're having they have a very low quality of life. And they would do anything for their children. And so people using this like my child's not a burden. This isn't something that needs to be fixed. It's not a there doesn't need to be a cure for autism. My child is beautiful the way they are. That's great if that's your experience. I would argue the same thing, but I would also say I don't think my child's a burden, and he is very high on the spectrum. But if I could do things to make his life easier because I see where he struggles, I would want to do it. And I would want people fighting for that, and I would want people asking these questions. So, like, what's blowing my mind right now is the people who are like making fun of this, or like, oh god, he look at what Trump is saying, and RFK is a fucking quack, and look at what he's saying. These have been studies that have been going on for decades. This isn't new information. This isn't, this isn't like it's not political. It shouldn't be political. It just we happen to find someone who is willing to do this digging, and he has been called an anti-vaxxer for years, even though we have already said he's not necessarily anti-vax. He is more about educating people, people using their own discernment, people asking questions. He wants to know why vaccine companies aren't being held liable because and I'm there was an act, uh the Vaccine Act of 1986 was passed where no one can sue these companies if they have vaccine harm. They're exempt from legal obligations, they're exempt from legal action. People can know that they were injured from a vaccine and they can't sue these companies and they can't be compensated, which is crazy to me. The studies aren't there enough, they're not being tested enough. There's no placebo studies in vaccine groups. Like, so how can you be so certain that that's not one of the causes? Yes, not the cause, not the only cause. How can you be so certain? And you know what's like this is also like I have I this is what I posted about last night. It's infuriating because why you're going off.

SPEAKER_00: 53:42

I'm loving this. Are you no? I'm just very proud of you.

SPEAKER_02: 53:45

The people I have seen who have been the loudest in attacking this are people who A don't have children, B, are not mothers, C they have children, but their children are healthy. So please let these mothers get answers. Like I am happy that we have someone who is fighting for that. Because if there was something that you could do to change the outcome, you are insane if you would sit here and say you wouldn't do it. Put yourself in this situation, have a little empathy for the people that this is like affecting the most. If you think that you wouldn't, like that just it blows my mind.

SPEAKER_00: 54:36

And I'm I'm really happy that you shared that. Um I've seen mothers who have even been disappointed with parents who have children with high functioning autism, and saying, like, you know, my child is not a burden because they're like, if I leave my child alone for one second, they're not safe to themselves. They will spread their feces on themselves and the walls. They are can't communicate. They are so frustrated that they will literally bang their head against the wall.

SPEAKER_02: 55:21

Um have you seen there have been children who have like gone missing and died?

SPEAKER_01: 55:27

Yes.

SPEAKER_02: 55:27

Because they have gotten out of their house. Like this was a concern of ours when Gabe was little. Like we had to put padlocks on our front door because we were afraid that like he would like he would he would he didn't sleepwalk, but he would have night terrors where he didn't know what he was doing. Like his like grandparents were concerned, like, you need to put a padlock on the front door because we didn't like if he woke up and didn't know what he was doing, like I was like, what what if he runs out into the street? Like, and this is an actual thing that has happened in so many families. I have witnessed something like this happen where they have had to put locks on their doors to keep their kids from running away because they're not aware of what they're doing, right? So I also feel like that it's crazy to like my my child is not a burden, but if you are a parent at all to healthy children, there are times your children are gonna drive you crazy. And this has nothing to do with like being on the spectrum, nothing, but like it's it's okay to say like gosh, being a parent is hard, and oh my gosh, having kids is hard, and I wish this was a little bit easier. So if you're saying that your child is not a burden and doesn't have to be fixed, like it's a very narrow way of of seeing what's actually harming families.

SPEAKER_00: 57:00

Well, and it's you see parents who get divorced, you see parents who they don't they're not able to date each other, you see parents who have to sleep in separate bedrooms, you see parents who again they're they're watching their child have to stay in diapers, not talk, um hurt themselves, hurt other people, uh, not know what they're doing, never be in a relationship, never get a job. Um why is that offensive to say?

SPEAKER_02: 57:34

I remember when this came out, like the first time when they were talking about like we're gonna do some, we're gonna do some digging and we're gonna figure out what's actually causing it. And they were saying these things. I think it was RFK like came and did a a not a live, what is it called, a conference and was saying Yeah, like a press conference. Yes, thank you. Where where there are people who are never gonna be able to hold jobs, they're never gonna be able to pay taxes, and that was so offensive to people.

SPEAKER_00: 58:02

But it's the truth.

SPEAKER_02: 58:04

Maybe he wasn't referring to you, right? If if you are if you consider yourself autistic or you're somewhere on the spectrum and you were holding down a job and you have a family, my husband, you have a family, like he was not talking about you.

SPEAKER_00: 58:19

Yeah, well, and I have a former client who, you know, she has a son that is on the spectrum, and he is, you know, nonverbal, and they have the finances where they can give him the support that he needs, and they still struggle so much. Think about the families who don't have the support, who don't have the finances to care for their child, who they can't have a parent to stay home with this child.

SPEAKER_02: 58:58

Like that they don't live in an area with like good ABA programs, or you know those are the parents who are screaming, yeah, help me.

SPEAKER_00: 59:09

And you know, you you may not agree with Tylenol, but what is wrong with being like, all right, this might be a factor. So vaccines might be a factor, the environment might be a factor, our food might be a factor. Yes, genetics are also a factor, but there are also a lot of these other things too. And like I don't know, I just the to watch the dismissal of these parents who again I'm I'm seeing are like literally screaming like, no, we need help, we need answers. This isn't right, like there's something like very wrong here.

SPEAKER_02: 59:54

Like and they're they're labeled anti-vaxxers because they question it. They question like what what what happened, you know, after my child got his 18-month shots and I saw them digress. Like, why are they being labeled anti-vaxx crazy hippies and also for noticing a difference in their child with their own eyes? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:00:19

I was talking to um, I I tell you about her, uh, a doctor, and and she she saw it in her nephew where he was two years old, and he was talking and all of these things, and then he just completely regressed. Like she is a doctor, and she has questions. A lot of doctors do wrong with that. And if you see a graph of the US and Canada compared to other countries, I mean it's it's wild to see how prevalent it is here compared to other countries. Why is I wish we could have a conversation?

SPEAKER_02: 1:01:03

Why can't we ask these questions? Yeah, why can't we ask these questions? You know, another thing like people are like up in arms about, and and I've seen this posted a few times, RFK is not a medical expert. Show of hands, does anybody know out of the last Secretary of Health and Human Services, is that what it is, Health and Human Services? Out of the last 10. How many have been in the medical field?

SPEAKER_00: 1:01:36

Can I break it down?

SPEAKER_02: 1:01:38

Go for it.

SPEAKER_00: 1:01:39

Okay.

SPEAKER_02: 1:01:40

Because people saying like he's not qualified. He's not qualified for this position.

SPEAKER_00: 1:01:45

Okay. The one before RFK, Xavier Serra, Democrat, lawyer and politician.

SPEAKER_02: 1:01:53

Not a doctor.

SPEAKER_00: 1:01:54

Not a doctor. Alex M. Azar, lawyer. Not a doctor. Tom Price, he was a Republican that served under Donald Trump's first term and just only in 2017. I don't know what happened to him. If he probably got canceled. Yeah. He was a physician. He was an orthopedic surgeon. Served in private practice and academic medicine. Person before him. Sylvia Matthews Burrell, Democrat, experienced executive in government and nonprofit. Not a doctor. Kathleen Sibelis, politician with executive and public administration background, not a doctor. Mike Levitt served under George Bush. Political administrator was governor of Utah. Tommy Thompson also served under Bush. Experienced in state government, governor of Wisconsin. Donna Shalala, Democrat, academic administrator. Yeah. Louis Sullivan. Another physician. And that was under that was under George H.W. Bush. So not even George W. Bush. Yeah. His dad. 89 to 93. So there's out of 10, there's two.

SPEAKER_02: 1:03:13

There's been two. One only served one term. I would love to do a job. One only served one year. One year, one year. Not even one term. One year. I would love, I will do my research and I will figure out why he didn't finish out his term under Trump the first time. Um, because that's interesting. That's what everybody's saying. But you know what I would argue is that if you listened, and and this is the first time I ever heard RFK speak ever, ever, was on Joe Rogan's podcast.

SPEAKER_00: 1:03:42

Oh, and people hate Joe Rogan or refuse to listen to him. Why?

SPEAKER_02: 1:03:45

Because he has people on who are controversial.

SPEAKER_00: 1:03:49

And he has people on of all sides. He argues with his guests. Yes. Can we normalize that?

SPEAKER_02: 1:03:57

Can we normalize that? Like, I don't really care that much for Joe Rogan. I will listen when he has someone on who's interesting. Who's interesting. Yeah. Sometimes he annoys the fuck out of me. Right. But I'm not there for him.

SPEAKER_00: 1:04:13

Right. You're there for his guests. I'm there for his guests.

SPEAKER_02: 1:04:16

I'm there to listen to all kinds of different people.

SPEAKER_00: 1:04:19

All kinds of different opinions. I listened to his interview with Donald Trump. I didn't. I listened to his interview with Bernie Sanders.

SPEAKER_02: 1:04:24

The Donald Trump one, both of those actually were hard to listen to.

SPEAKER_00: 1:04:27

Yes, yes, they're both painful.

SPEAKER_02: 1:04:29

The RFK one was fucking fascinating.

SPEAKER_00: 1:04:33

People don't. A lot of people who I've noticed who hate him will not even listen to him.

SPEAKER_02: 1:04:45

It's it's I think a lot of people say it's because of his voice, and I hate that. It makes me angry. Yeah. Because you're missing a very, very good conversation with someone. Yes. You're missing out on understanding who this person is.

SPEAKER_00: 1:05:06

And again, you can still leave the conversation and disagree with him.

SPEAKER_02: 1:05:10

That's not the point. Yes, absolutely. Uh within 10 minutes of this episode, I re-listened to this because I hadn't listened to this since it first came out. Um, within 10 minutes, he's talking about how he got into these vaccine studies. Like back in like the 90s, early 2000s. Um, he's an environmental lawyer. He has been doing this environmental stuff for decades, has won several billion dollars in lawsuits against big corporations, um, pollutants in the water. Uh, Lake Hudson is now a clean place because he fought against pollutants being put in the water. He saw what it was doing to the people around the water. Um he knew a lot about mercury poisoning. A lot about mercury poisoning. That was like a lot of his cases were were about this particular thing. And my husband's in law school. Like, you think I go down rabbit holes?

SPEAKER_00: 1:06:26

They go down rabbit holes.

SPEAKER_02: 1:06:27

They have to. It's how they win their arguments. They have to present facts upon facts upon facts, resource after resource. Like he was like, you become this is what RFK said, you become somewhat of an expert in these areas because you spend months doing this research and collecting evidence and gathering information. So he knew so much about mercury poisoning. And he would go and have these talks, and and these women would follow him. Like these like droves of women would borderline harass him. Please, please, please look into these mercury, mercury cases and vaccines. Like my child was was harmed by this vaccine and nobody's listening to me. Like, you know so much about mercury. Please will you look into this for us? And he was like so against it at first. And finally, he said, like, somebody came and left him like an 18-inch stack of studies where these mothers had done the research themselves, and they were like, Look at all these studies that we have that that are pointing to vaccines and mercury. I want you to look into this, please. And so he finally read it and he was like, What the fuck?

SPEAKER_00: 1:07:43

You know what I think of when you're talking about these moms? What? That is some Cali fucking energy. Yeah. Because it doesn't matter what anyone else is saying, they will fight tooth and nail for their children. That's some Cali shit. Why are we so emotional over this? Because I I feel I feel for these parents. Yeah. I feel for these parents. I feel that it's this political thing. And I feel for them that it has affected their quality of life, their children, their children who are not autistic. Um, and just to watch the gaslighting and this dismissal of it from regular people and from people who are experts, it's just disheartening. Because I I think that this should be something where we really should be coming together to help these people. And I hate that. So anywho.

SPEAKER_02: 1:08:42

Yeah. So it's it's it's it's frustrating because people are like, he doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about. I would argue he knows so much more than you know.

unknown: 1:08:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:08:54

You're you're you're you literally look like an imbecile trying to argue with this man.

SPEAKER_00: 1:09:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:09:01

And and he did like he did take on these families. He he did take them on and he won. And it was there was mercury that was harming children in the vaccines. They removed the mercury, like it was doing a lot of damage. Like, like this is uh factual information. And to think that like it's all good now.

SPEAKER_00: 1:09:28

Right.

SPEAKER_02: 1:09:29

This man has been on to this, he has been on their asses for decades. This isn't a fucking conspiracy theory, and this isn't new information. He has been fighting for these parents ever since.

SPEAKER_00: 1:09:43

Wow.

SPEAKER_02: 1:09:43

So yeah, that's that's my two cents. Yeah. Like maybe he is an expert in this area.

SPEAKER_00: 1:09:50

Right, right, right. And maybe just be open to open to listening to what he has to say. Um, the other point that I wanted to talk about, where I don't we've we've touched a little bit on it um in previous seasons where we've been talking about like SSRIs and and benzos and just big pharma. I don't think that we realize how brainwashed we are. And so I kind of want to go into that of what I've said before was that we are us and New Zealand are the only two countries in the world who allow pharma commercials. Now think about that for a second. It is blasted everywhere. So it is blasted. It is the top commercial along with um with car commercials, and um I'll have to find the other one. Is alcohol one of them? I think it's cars and alcohol and fast food. I see so much so I want you, I want you to think about that for example commercials. Yeah. Again, the commercials you are seeing, the top commercials you are seeing, cars, alcohol, fast food, big pharma. Just sit on that. Okay, so um this has been happening since 1997. In New Zealand, it's been since the 1980s. But the difference with New Zealand, it is a much smaller market. Okay. So um, so for the US, it's enormous. Uh, the US spends billions per year on these ads. It is one of the largest categories on TV. Like I said, it's up there with cars, fast food, alcohol. Um the style of the way that they do it compared to New Zealand. We do like it's you know, people running around and having so much fun and playing with their kids and like frolicking in a field. It's so crazy to me. Where in New Zealand it's not that, it's just informational. The ads are shorter with plainer presentation of risk. Interesting.

SPEAKER_02: 1:12:28

So um our commercials are living their best lives. 100%. Well, the fucking side effects at the end are like may cause suicide and homicidal ideation, may cause constipation, may cause diarrhea.

SPEAKER_00: 1:12:43

Maybe diarrhea may cause um heart failure. Heart failure, may cause liver damage, may cause like so again, like okay. So the other thing, most western medicine doctors here in the US are for pharma. You go to a doctor, you're depressed, they're not gonna talk to you about like what trauma do you have? Why are you sad? What's your home life like? You know, what's your stress, whatever. Here's Zoloft, here's Well Butrin, here's Prozac. Okay. In New Zealand, this is a much stronger public debate. Many New Zealand doctors, health groups, and politicians argue that pharma ads confuse patients and undermine trust. Um, several governments have tried to ban them, but lobbying has kept them alive. So again, there are doctors, even though there's pharmaceutical ads in New Zealand, it's on a much smaller scale, much more informational than like, you know, like fucking picking fucking flowers and shit while talking about whatever, you know, medication. And doctors fight this. Here it is very normalized, and it's the only country in the world where it's so normalized. So I just want people to sit on that. And um yeah, the volume in the US is much, much different in New Zealand. The tone in the US is much different than New Zealand, and the public opinion in the US is much, much different than New Zealand. Um yeah, so it's just something worth thinking about, worth sitting with, worth looking into the way that we have been programmed since 1997 with just commercials, and maybe how this has brainwashed us a little bit to where we think it's normal, but the fact is it's not, it's not normal anywhere fucking else.

SPEAKER_02: 1:15:05

Okay, I just feel like once upon a time you posted some statistics about that, about how much money, how much these ad companies pay these like channels to post their ads, and it's a it's an insane ridiculous amount of money. And I think we should find that and come back to it because I'm not gonna lie, I think this could be an entire episode.

SPEAKER_00: 1:15:34

Oh, and if someone knows anyone who would be willing to talk to us about any of these things, please send them our way. We've got some we've got some great people on the back burner who I'm very excited about, but like these are things that I think we should talk about.

SPEAKER_02: 1:15:59

I there are some things I didn't know. There's another Joe Rogan podcast I listened to with like Brigham.

SPEAKER_00: 1:16:06

I love Brigham Young.

SPEAKER_02: 1:16:07

Yes, who was a big pharmaceutical rep rep. Um, and finally realized like what he was doing was like wrong. And he like basically is this whistleblower for big pharma and big insurance companies. And he is very outspoken about how fucked up the medical and pharmaceutical and insurance companies are, how it is literally just about money and not about health. And I think it's easy for like like people will say that, be like, oh yeah, they don't care about our health. But like, no, when you hear him talk about the inside of what's going on and the shit that he has done and the stuff that he has seen. And I witnessed it firsthand just a few months ago. Like, just how very, very quick. I haven't had a primary care physician in 10 years, probably longer. I can't even remember the last time I saw one. Same. Like, I don't go to the doctor that often. I've started, I've I would say for like 10 years, I've been more holistic than than not. Um, it takes a lot for me to be medicated. Um, I say that because I I was on Zoloft um after I had my last child, so that that was eight years ago.

SPEAKER_00: 1:17:36

Can you also share that I I don't think most people know this that to get off of an antidepressant takes two years? Yeah, nobody knows that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:17:47

We can get into that. Actually, I kind of want to save this story.

SPEAKER_00: 1:17:52

Okay.

SPEAKER_02: 1:17:53

Can this be a can to be continued? Sure. Sure. Because it it could just keep going if I start. But let I will just say I I finally caved. I found a primary care physician. Um and within 30 minutes, she was trying to put me on four different medications that I kept pushing back and saying no on.

unknown: 1:18:17

Wow.

SPEAKER_02: 1:18:18

I walked out of that place and felt very defeated and felt like I had never witnessed anything like that before. I knew it happened, but it I can see how if you're not aware of it, you're like, oh, they're just trying to help me.

SPEAKER_00: 1:18:34

Right.

SPEAKER_02: 1:18:35

And now I'm like on the on the hunt for a very holistic doctor. So if anybody knows I'm gonna, I've got several leads.

SPEAKER_00: 1:18:43

Well, and I think there's a time and a place for Western medicine. If I break a bone and I need surgery, I think Western medicine is obviously the way to go. Um I don't think she knew I had done my research on a lot of this stuff. And I think I think we are used to getting gaslight, gaslit by um doctors and experts. And I would say that there is probably a strong argument, which it that's another rabbit hole I would like to go down is Rockefeller, um and the whole Western medicine and how that started. Um, but I think that there is a strong argument that some of the smartest people that we consider, like doctors and experts like that, are also some of the most indoctrinated. Uh yeah. So like it's I think it's okay to push back.

SPEAKER_02: 1:19:35

You see common practice for doctors to learn holistic medicine, and that was removed. Until Rockefeller. You know the story? I do. I don't. That's exciting.

SPEAKER_00: 1:19:47

Yeah, yeah. Until Rockefeller so happens to be a billionaire. What do you know? Wow. Yeah, and then started teaching it. You know what's funny?

SPEAKER_02: 1:19:57

You know, I think we're like giving people a glimpse right now into like what our actual conversations have been like over the past few years that we have been like, yeah, we can't say this stuff out loud. Like we'll get fucking canceled. You know what? Cancel us.

SPEAKER_00: 1:20:14

That's okay. We're okay with it. Yeah, we're okay with it. There is a there's a part of me that the word Come at me, bro. Kinda we can say there there is this part where it's like, okay, you can cancel me. Like you can you can try. You can you can take a clip of something I said. Um, like a I'll own it. I'll I'll own that maybe I said something wrong. We do not claim to be experts. We don't claim to be perfect. We don't claim to be perfect. We will maybe change our mind. We have on several things. We have on several things. So it's like, you want to cancel me, go right ahead. Like that honestly kind of like motivates me to say things that people, other people are scared to say. Like, okay, I'll go be at home with my family. I don't care.

SPEAKER_02: 1:21:14

Can we can we talk about what this is right now collectively? I think people are calling this like the Charlie Kirk experience. It's like this movement where people are like, all right, you want to say I'm racist? I don't care anymore. Yeah, you're you're committed to misunderstanding me.

SPEAKER_00: 1:21:34

You're committed to making me out to be the villain. That part. You are committed to misunderstanding me. So anything I say is going to rub you the wrong way because you are listening to be offended.

SPEAKER_02: 1:21:46

It's like, it's like when you say, like, anything you can and say can and what is it? Hang on. What a police officer say, what is it, the Miranda rights? You can anything you say can and will be used against you. Use it, use it, go for it.

unknown: 1:22:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:22:01

Cause and and like I'm I'm allowed to make mistakes. I'm I'm allowed to get things wrong. We all are.

unknown: 1:22:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:22:10

Um, and I think that like what happened with Charlie is absolutely horrific, but I think more and more people are like standing up and speaking out because what happened gave us the fucking balls to do it.

SPEAKER_00: 1:22:29

Well, it's like COVID. As awful as it was, some people woke up. Yeah. This, Charlie Kirk, obviously horrific. Whatever side of the fence you're on, I don't give a shit about that. People woke up. I think there is happening. There is incredible value right now in authentic self-expression.

SPEAKER_02: 1:22:59

I don't know how we close with anything other than that. What do we do? Um if you heard this episode, it means you're part of our inner circle. Maybe one day we'll be brave and put it out there for everyone else. Um, I think that clips would probably be great, but but you know. Right now, we appreciate you guys. Um I hope you learned something from this. Um, and what do we say now? Stay open, be curious. Um, we'll see you guys on the other side. Bye.