See You On The Other Side
Meet Leah and Christine. Busy moms and entrepreneurs just trying to balance this crazy thing called life. But we don't do surface, and we're definitely not your typical momtrepreneurs...so let's go a little deeper. Empaths, traumatic childhoods, generational trauma, people pleasers, toxic relationship patterns, anxiety, depression, feeling stuck and desperately seeking peace and happiness. And then we fell into the world of magic mushrooms and psychedelics. The catalyst that helped us break out of our comfort zones and took us DEEP into our personal healing journeys. We'll take you behind the scenes as we learn more about the holistic side of healing and all the amazing people we plan on meeting along the way. Join us as we share the good, the bad, and the ugly side of healing. With and without psychedelics. We hope to see you on the other side! Note: We are not professionals and we do not advise the use of illegal substances. For more about psychedelic support or clinical trials in your area, visit https://psychedelic.support/
See You On The Other Side
94 | From Opioid Addiction to Healing Through Ibogaine (with Talia Eisenberg)
Talia’s journey from opioid addiction to healing through the transformative power of Ibogaine is not just inspiring—it's a beacon of hope for those battling similar demons. Her experiences have led her to co-found the Beond Ibogaine Treatment Center. We discuss her efforts and the challenges faced in pushing alternative treatments to the forefront of the fight against the opioid crisis. Talia’s personal story of overcoming addiction, beginning with a seemingly innocuous dental procedure, underscores the urgent need for diverse therapeutic options beyond conventional medication assisted therapy and treatments.
Exploring Ibogaine’s unique properties, we discuss its traditional ties to the Bwiti tribe in Africa and its integration into Western clinical practices. Ibogaine stands out among psychedelics for its multi-faceted impact on the brain and its ability to reframe past memories, providing a sense of lightness and clarity. We delve into the delicate balance between ensuring clinical safety due to potential cardiac risks and embracing the spiritual aspects of the experience. Talia explains how Ibogaine promotes the glial-derived neurotrophic factor (GDNF), supporting neuroplasticity for months, aiding individuals in integrating newfound insights into their daily lives.
Our conversation expands on the broader therapeutic potential of Ibogaine, from tackling conditions like Lyme disease to helping those dependent on SSRIs. We reflect on personal anecdotes and stories of individuals who have found profound healing and lasting change through Ibogaine. With the backdrop of advocacy efforts and legal hurdles in traditionally conservative areas, we aim to shine a light on the transformative power of Ibogaine. Join us as we navigate this powerful narrative, touching on healing addiction, spiritual exploration, and the exciting new horizons of psychedelic research.
Connect with Beond Ibogaine here: https://beondibogaine.com/
And here: https://www.instagram.com/beond.us
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Okay, so where are you guys located? Thank you for having me on the show. I was watching, looking at some of your posts and listening to some of your prior podcasts. I'm very grateful we could do this.
Speaker 3:We are too. We're in Louisville, kentucky, yeah, so Okay.
Speaker 1:Louisville. Wow, yeah, kentucky. I just spent a bunch of time there, as you guys probably know, over the last couple of years, well, or over the last few months, well. So we have been involved sort of behind the scenes with the Kentucky Ibogaine Project. I don't know if you knew about that?
Speaker 3:I do know about that.
Speaker 1:And I was able to testify in front of the Opiate Abatement Commission on behalf of Ibogaine and why we should unlock opiate abatement funding from the Sacklers and Purdue and some of these bigger institutions that are responsible for the causing part of the opiate crisis. So I've been to Kentucky like multiple times in the last year.
Speaker 2:Okay, so next time you could come to. Kentucky, we would love to meet you.
Speaker 3:Are you familiar with the Kentucky Harm Reduction Coalition? Yes, we met with them. That is like insane.
Speaker 1:I love that. That's important work. Well, sadly, it was killed, this abatement fund in Kentucky, because of the new attorney general there who is, I mean, we don't have to go in detail there, who is, I mean, we don't have to go in detail but the truth is that they are in bed with the powers that be and Suboxone makers and the university in Kentucky. So they didn't really want this to happen and they want the funding to go more towards Suboxone and other forms of you know, I can't knock Suboxone. It's definitely saved a lot of lives, but it also has harmed a lot of people and the truth is we need other alternatives, like Ibogaine in a sort, in a context that is, you know, with preparation and integration in Kentucky would have been incredible for the everyday working people.
Speaker 1:You know coal miners I mean. What's happened there is worse than anywhere in the US in ways related to you know, these are poor people that are uneducated and the pharmaceutical companies basically came in and you know they became addicted and now have no options in life. It's very sad. So that failed the Kentucky Project, but now it's being taken to many other states, the blueprint of what was created, what we worked on in Kentucky with lawyers there and other great leaders and politicians. Now we're looking at Ohio and New Mexico and other states. So that's exciting. But just a little background before we talk.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's what a small world. But Kentucky is the catalyst for this, I know I feel like we need to include that in the we're not going to edit all of that out. We can talk about it briefly, or you want to just edit that.
Speaker 2:We might just edit that for sure. Yeah, I mean, let's just go ahead and get started. So, talia, I found Beyond on TikTok and I am so glad that we have been connected with you. You are the co-founder of Beyond. Is it Abogaine Treatment Center, or how do you?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah and that's with your husband. Yes, okay, we co-founded Beyond about three years ago and this is a technology that helped me about 15 years ago so a long time ago to break free from intergenerational trauma. Really, a symptom of that was an opiate addiction in my early 20s, which started with a routine dental procedure, like many people back then, before there was warnings around how addictive these pills were.
Speaker 1:I took it and I liked the feeling. It alleviated the anxiety I felt for most of my life, coming from a family of Holocaust survivors my grandmother in particular and yeah, I felt a sense of relief and continued to take it. And at the time, you know, dentists were writing prescriptions like it was nothing. You know now there's Netflix shows about this. But back then, you know, pharmaceutical companies sort of manufactured this for profit and even the inside of the warnings there weren't no, any warnings. Basically there was, okay, this is not addictive, this is not so addictive. And so back then, you know many people started that way, everyday people. I was living in New York City, I was in college, everything on the outside looked great. I had started like a little art gallery in the Lower East Side. I had a thriving social life. But yeah, I always felt this sort of anxiety also, like this deeper sense at a young age of what are we doing here? What's the purpose? Why are we here? So I felt odd and left out. I grew up in Omaha, nebraska.
Speaker 2:Shut up. I'm from Iowa. Oh wow, yeah, it's like a two hour car drive to Omaha.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's incredible, my mom's from Cedar Rapids. So, yeah, and I discovered a friend of mine told me about I had tried. You know, over that two year period I was blessed that my parents were very worried and had been to a number of the best rehabs in the United States. And you know something, I realized that it was a brain. Not, it was a brain disorder. In a way, like I would always need an opiate, the post acute withdrawals would kick in after 30, 60, 90 days and I would end up reaching for an opiate to calm myself. Greatly reduces or, for some people, eliminates withdrawals, and that was the case for me.
Speaker 1:I went and did Ibogaine in a less than savory manner and facility, without coaching or therapeutic support, but I was blessed to find it and I experienced it. It was a profound awakening on many levels. I saw my purpose here. I was able to forgive the people that had harmed my grandmother and many others. I saw the human condition, the suffering sort of how we always evolve as a species, and all the wars throughout humanity, and felt this internal battle between the light and the dark in my body. I thought I was going to die. It was like I was being ripped up on the insides and then I came to a place of complete love and, amazingly, didn't have at the end, didn't have the cravings that I'd always felt. When you have, it's like anything Many people can relate to having an eating disorder or even a need to pick up the phone all the time. Whatever it is, today, I didn't need to reach for an opiate anymore and that was the sense of relief where I could actually focus on healing and getting better and recovery and treating the underlying anxiety that I felt and treating the underlying anxiety that I felt.
Speaker 1:So then, I've, in the last 15 years, launched onto a healing path and have a master's in energy medicine and have learned how to work with that, or went to Peru and worked with Shipibo and did dietas with ayahuasca, or even my husband and I are huge fans, of Course, in Miracles, and we went to Burma and you know we've spent a lot of time meditating and studying various forms of meditation, but for me, ibogaine was the catalyst, and you know, now I have children and have this beautiful life really, and was able to get an MBA in sustainability. You know, people, planet, purpose. What can we do to give back but also create a business, a profitable business that helps heal the world and helps people in various ways. And so my, my thesis in the MBA program was that one of the best things that we can do to alleviate suffering and also shift the planet and help reverse climate change is to become conscious and help others become more conscious. And so for me, that tool was and is Ibogaine.
Speaker 1:And so, basically, three years ago, during the beginning of this psychedelic renaissance, if you want to call it that and we have an opiate crisis that's killing a 747 airplane of people a day. It's a serious, it's the number one killer under 40 in the US and because there wasn't really a lot of great Ibogaine facilities on the planet, we launched Beyond and what we found is that it's not just a tool for addiction. It's a tool for rewiring your thought patterns, shifting your belief systems. It works very well for PTSD, as the recent Stanford study has shown. For veterans, it reduced PTSD, anxiety and depression by 80% after one month, and even past three months three months. And it's a tool being used by people like Joe Rogan and Tim Ferriss, not just for those that are in a severe crisis of trauma or addiction, but also for personal growth, for focus.
Speaker 1:We get many normal people that are just seeking. You know they might have it all on the outside right, but they're. They're questioning what? What are my next steps? What's my purpose for being here? Reconnects you to your, your soul, essentially, and each person has a different purpose, right, and it's sort of shows you this GPS navigation for what to do next in life.
Speaker 1:So that's why we launched Beyond, and it's a series. You know, ibogaine is one tool that we use, but we have many tools on site coaching, cold plunge therapy, somatic therapy, meditation, um watsu water therapy there's many forms. It's sort of a buffet of tools that I've used myself in the last 15 years and people are deeply supported. There's a lot of workshops that we have peer support and coaching, and each person gets a workbook to specifically target their unique reason for coming and come out of the process with many insights and the ability to apply the insights that they've gained from their experiences to their everyday life when they go home. And the coaching continues. There's one-on-one coaching and there's weekly free coaching for all alumni continuing, and so that's part of what we do at Beyond, holy shit.
Speaker 3:I know, I know Like you just answered our entire list of questions, so let me I want to back it up because for our listeners who may be new, or to psychedelics, I feel like we speak a lot to people who are like just dipping their toes in to psychedelics. I feel like we speak a lot to people who are like just dipping their toes in. Ibogaine is um a psychedelic that we we looked into or we talked about or we we realized what it was, the power of it. When we saw, like the Lamar Odom um documentary, he did ketamine first and then he went and did Ibogaine treatment and then we were, we heard, like wait a minute, ibogaine is the most powerful psychedelic in the world. We thought it was ayahuasca, like there's something bigger. So started doing the deep dive into that and can you explain to us what it is and what? Maybe like a typical process or like what a journey through Ibogaine looks like, like what it is and what it does?
Speaker 1:Sure. So Ibogaine is derived from an African shrub called Iboga. Iboga has more alkaloids than just Ibogaine alone, but Ibogaine is what has been studied by researchers and it's a purified form of Iboga Ibogaine. So it does come from. You know it's been. Iboga has been used by tribes in Africa for thousands of years. One of the main tribes is the Bwiti tribe and they use it to connect with ancestors, for rites of passage, for insights, sort of like. How in our society people have bar mitzvahs or bat mitzvahs or wedding rituals. They use it to go inward and connect and to shift life. Connect and to shift life, to shift, you know, shift into different gears of their life.
Speaker 1:Ibogaine is used more in the West in a clinical setting. So at Beyond, I think we've done a great job of balancing clinical with spiritual aspects, ritual aspects. Because Ibogaine has cardiac risks, it needs to be used in a setting with trained physicians and nurses who understand cardiac care. So all of our treatments are done in a. We say we have the world's sexiest ICU, so there's beautiful lighting and scenes of the jungle. But there is, and the lights are dimmed and not many people would notice this, but there is a crash cart and people are hooked up to electrolytes such as magnesium during the whole treatment, which lasts around 12 hours. And now we have about eight.
Speaker 1:We just hired a few more eight full-time physicians and almost 20 nurses on staff, coupled with shamanic coaches and breathwork guides and other facilitators. Right, so our nurses are trained in clearing the space and Palo Santo and mindfulness and breathwork, but they're also able to reduce any risk that could occur. Now, if Ibogaine is used in a medical setting and the team the clinical team is well-trained, the risk is very low because we have a whole pre-admissions process where everyone is checked out and there's a process for reviewing your history, of course, and then, when you arrive on site, there's lab work liver enzymes are drawn, we look at people's, we do EKGs, and that occurs regularly and during the Ibogaine treatment. So people feel very safe, so they can let go of their body and expand their mind essentially and try to get to the root cause of their body and and expand their mind essentially and try to get to the root cause of their suffering. And that's what we assist people in doing.
Speaker 2:We have. So we have talked a lot about. For us, mushrooms have been our catalyst, it was, it was the thing that we did where it just it just clicked. What is it about the medicine that is like it's so profound and because it is, it sounds so much like and we've done ayahuasca too and that was very intense and it was, you know, a three-day experience. What is it about Ibogaine? That's like so intense and it's so long so intense and it's so long.
Speaker 1:So Ibogaine works on more aspects of the brain than any other psychedelic. It's also known as the psychedelic that uniquely goes into people's memory banks, if you will, and one can argue that our whole identity is made up of memories, right, who we are as a person, our ego, if you want to say that comes from our experience in childhood, or what we've, what we have acquired in this life, or what certifications we've acquired, or who are, what we do for work, who our kids are, who our husbands are, who our ex-boyfriends were Our identities are linked to that. So if people are struggling today, it's usually because they're projecting their past, or if there's been trauma or heartache, they're having a hard time being purely present, right, because their ideas of right now are informed by their past memories. So Ibogaine, uniquely, is able to go through people's memories from the past and I'd like to say, like a computer of sorts with many windows open, it can go through and defrag or clean up these memories. You don't forget the memory of, let's say, you had a traumatic childhood and your father was cruel. You remember the memory, but the fuse and the energy of the memory is no longer there and, unlike maybe with psilocybin or ayahuasca. You can find a new perspective, but you're able to release the memory in a different way and you feel a lightness because of that. So that's one aspect.
Speaker 1:Another way that ibogaine is unique from psilocybin or other ketamine or other psychedelics is that it promotes a protein in the brain, and it's the only natural occurring substance on the planet to do this. It's called glial derived nootropic factor, gdnf, and that is the protein that you know. You see how joyful kids are from the age of zero to seven. That's the protein that produces creativity, joy, a love for life that we lose over time. So that is unique. And it's also unique in the fact that and you can put this for your viewers Gul Dulin, a researcher out of Berkeley.
Speaker 1:She proved that Ibogaine is the longest lasting in your system of all psychedelics. So it continues to promote neuroplasticity for up to three months, whereas with. So it continues to promote neuroplasticity for up to three months, whereas with. She has this great chart it shows ketamines out of your system the fastest, I think within a few days or a week. Ayahuasca after that and some other everything else but Ibogaine. Because of this GDNF and the neuroplasticity to create new habits. It stays in your system for up to three months.
Speaker 1:So, like I've used Ayahuasca a number of times, you have these deep insights. It's very profound. It's DMT. It's different. Iboga or Ibogaine doesn't have the DMT, but you have these profound insights. You feel connected to the universe. But maybe a couple of days later you have trouble integrating them and you see people going back for ayahuasca a lot and they have a hard time bringing what they learned, or believing what they learned, into their daily 3D reality, whereas with Ibogaine it's much easier to bring insights into your everyday life Because of that neuroplasticity and because it stays.
Speaker 1:It converts to something called noribogaine in your liver and that is metabolizing through your system and because of that you have months to take the insights and take action. So people feel it's a natural antidepressant and people wake up. They're able to create new habits it's known as the habit interrupting medicine and our thoughts become our habits, right, our actions. So you're able to create new habits. You're able to meditate in the morning if you want that. You're able to not react to your husband or your children or your boss and shift the way that you do things, whether that is for a behavioral addiction, a chemical addiction or just creating a new mindset in life for everyday people. So that's how this medicine is unique, and so we see people not needing to come back.
Speaker 1:If they do come back, it's because it's you know, a year later typically, and it's because they want to reach a much deeper level and in that time they've changed so much. You know, we have people who are a mom who might drink too much wine at night, they're high functioning and they have their own little company or whatever it is. But then they'll come back a year later. They'll have stopped drinking. That's not an issue at all, but they want to figure out what they should be doing with their time now, or they're, you know they're. They feel, um, for the most part very alive, but they have some other questions. So, um, yes, to answer your question, it's not. It's it's much different and it's hard to compare it with any other psychedelic. And the other way that it's different is that it's more of a lucid dream state.
Speaker 1:When you're on it, you're very aware of you are where you are. Ibogaine has a bad reputation because I think it's been used for opiate addiction for many years, and when people are coming in in that space, they may not have looked at aspects of their lives for years, right, because they've sort of been numb and they haven't been able to process emotions, and for them it can be scary. But for others who are already doing this work, I think for your audience you know, you're always aware of where you are, you know your name, you know who the staff is, you're bonded with them. It's not like DMT where you're completely gone, or heavy doses of psilocybin, and you're able to actively pull up issues and look at them and heal them, and so there's much more of an ability to work with the medicine that way as well, even though you know the visions are like four hours and the insights are longer than that and make up the rest of the time, you're very much able to work with it and it's, yeah, more malleable, I would say.
Speaker 3:I think we've shared that chart before, where it correlates to the duration of the journey as well. So, like because ketamine is only like an hour long journey, that's why the results are less, not less, effective. I know it's like a really great medicine for a lot of people, but it doesn't last in your system as long. That window of opportunity to change isn't as long, which is why I see a lot of people kind of getting stuck continuing to do ketamine, like every few weeks or every few months like, and not really finding what these other substances would be able to give them. So, yeah, I'm, I'm like, listening to you talk about this, I really thought that this was like a medicine that you know was for addicts or extreme PTSD, um, or TBIs. And now I'm like do I need to do?
Speaker 2:we need to, that's literally what I was thinking. I'm like, how do we go and do this? Because I so I did a mushroom journey this summer and I've just had a hard time like understanding kind of what it means and integrating it into like my everyday life. What you were just saying, so exactly what you're just saying, so like this is it's just really fascinating to me.
Speaker 2:And we interviewed vets and you know a lot of a lot of their veterans have have gone and done Ibogaine treatments, but a lot of the stories we have heard it's like what Leah said there was there was alcoholism, there was, you know, drug addiction, there was TBI, so like we didn't even know, like if we were candidates of it and it's. It's a thing where, you know, psilocybin has helped us a lot with our depression and our anxiety and our trauma. But I don't know if I speak for us both. I feel like we both still have a lot of questions on what we're supposed to do, what we're meant to do, what our purpose in this life is, um and so, yeah, this is just this is, I'm like, struggling to find words, cause this is kind of not at all what I expected this interview to be.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, you're at how you two, you know, can come when, whenever you're ready. We can, we can work.
Speaker 2:Oh, we're ready.
Speaker 1:For example, there was a woman with us last week who started a well-known company in the fitness space and by the time she left us, on day six, she was like I need to sell my company in two years from now. You know she had burnout. I need to sell my company in two years from now. I want to have a child after, in a couple more years, and then I just want to be, you know, a guide and a coach after that. So she had a whole plan for what she wanted to do and she feels so great. She's able to sleep for the first time in a long time. She has more energy, she has more focus. She has investors lined up. It's only been like a week since she left. Yeah, it has gifts for every person that comes, that's for sure.
Speaker 3:It's almost like with what we've done. There's lessons there and you kind of have to like interpret them, you know, with your own perception, with your own life. This seems more clarifying than anything.
Speaker 1:Yes, I would say Iboga or Ibogaine is very direct. They say it's like a stern grandfather. So this is what you need to do and this is how to do it. You can ask it questions and they're very practical answers that come back sometimes with not a lot of um, not a lot of story behind it. Just do this, do this, do this.
Speaker 1:And that is very helpful for people because I know, with ayahuasca, like I wasn't, you know, I had a vision once that maybe I was molested and it took me six months to figure out, but it was more of a metaphor. I was emotionally molested and there was codependency, but the vision I saw was very much like molestation, but it actually wasn't. It was more emotional ownership by a family member, but it took me months to figure out. And I think that happens a lot with you know some of these medicines and that can be confusing for people. That's an extreme example, obviously, but they have visions. Oh, another time ayahuasca showed me that my brother was going to commit suicide. Or it didn't show me, it showed somebody else in the room and they came up to me afterwards and were scared to tell me and they said it was going to happen soon and the truth was months later he had a complete shift in consciousness.
Speaker 1:I think you guys had him on the show, actually, zev, did you have him on the show, or maybe not? Maybe I'm confused. That was another show, but lax, I think. Soul purpose for many, no offense to those that are in it. And then a few months later he actually did have a death of that old self and he went to school to be a therapist, found these medicines prior to that and has now shifted into a whole new life path. So sometimes it's a metaphor and it's not so literal and people have trouble with that, whereas I feel in general Ibogaine is more direct and literal, so that can be helpful too.
Speaker 2:Well, and it sounds like, because it's like when you take psilocybin, when you take ayahuasca, you are just truly like surrendering to the experience, Whereas with Ibogaine it almost sounds like you're able to kind of like work with it.
Speaker 1:You can co-create with it, that's true. I mean, don't get me wrong.
Speaker 2:You tell me. I'm asking.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you can co-create with it more and you know few. Some people don't have the visions they want to have, but they always get the benefit. I always see people getting the benefits afterwards. Some people do have really strong minds and don't want to let it in Um, but they still get all the. You know the GDNF properties. It's still working in their liver for months after, so they feel great. But it's still working in their liver for months after, so they feel great. But and they get the insights later. And that's a small percentage.
Speaker 1:I just want to. I want to be careful because I think during this psychedelic renaissance, if you will, there's been too much about how great all these things are and not enough about some of the challenges and struggles. But I think for the most part I've seen everyone gets benefits afterwards and it stays with you for so long. You know they say like it takes 30 days to create new habits. You're able to create new habits while it's in your system and change old habits. But, yeah, some people it's rare they have trouble surrendering and letting it in and therefore may not have the visions they want to see.
Speaker 2:But the benefits are there. So, like with psilocybin, we we try to do it like every year when we feel like we're we're getting disconnected from ourselves. You know that's when we'll be like okay, like I, I'm ready for the medicine with Ibogaine. You know, if I can ask you, like, how many times you've done it? Or is it something that people come and do every year? They or they, they feel good, they like what's.
Speaker 3:Yeah, what's typical with that? Yeah?
Speaker 1:Typical. I don't see a lot of people needing to do it more than once. In general they get so much from it. But sometimes, as I said, if they you know, if people are coming in with severe trauma, it depends where they are right. I'm not like I believe that it's just a spectrum. We're all. We're all coming for optimization in a way.
Speaker 1:But there's some people that are have more trauma and have, I mean, in some way we're all addicts. I mean we're addicted to feeling good, we're addicted to the phone, we're addicted whatever it is, we're addicted to our thoughts. But then there's some people who have alcohol issues or relationship codependencies and they're just having trouble functioning. It really does deep clearing on, like the first or second layers, if you want to call it that, and then they feel like they've had such a transformation that maybe a year or two later they want to come and go deeper and they're in a completely different place.
Speaker 1:As I said, for others that have already done a lot of this work, they might not need to do it again, you know, and it is costly, right, and that's sometimes criticism that we get, that it is costly, but you have to remember we have a whole, we have a huge medical team and staff and our overhead is very high. So, and people never say, well, I thought that was a rip off. When they leave, they're like God, that was worth what you know, way more than than what we paid, what we got, so, um, and then there's yeah, there's the people that come more for optimization and um. You know, sometimes they do want to come back later if they need to Um, but they're always in a different place and it works so well that they're willing to come back and they want to come back and do more um and get more answers and create new, higher, better quality of life.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so let me take this back to addiction, if I can. Um, I don't know how much rehab facilities cost. I'm sure it's a range of you can go from low to extremely high. I'm bringing it to this because I have someone who has a loved one who they struggle with heroin used to be opiates and medication and it's just they are constantly sending this person to different rehab facilities. I mentioned Ibogaine once and their response was no, they have such an issue with addiction. They would find a way to use Ibogaine as a drug and I'm like I don't think that's how that works. I don't think that's how that works. Um center a few articles, but I think that there is this like big stigma around, like how can you get someone sober from from drugs? How can you? How can you do that with another substance?
Speaker 1:Um, and to my, to my like, I guess, for me, I'm like well, you're already spending all of this money on these treatment centers and these rehab facilities every year that aren't working. What do you have to to 30 or 40 rehabs over 10 or 15 years? And it's a revolving door. The problem with rehabs, I mean God bless them. In some ways it keeps people from killing themselves and overdosing, so that's good, but it doesn't typically get to the core of the issue, which, in my perspective, from studying this for so many years now, is a spiritual malady.
Speaker 2:You're going to have to.
Speaker 1:That was our head of pre-admissions. How do I? Okay, sorry, so we're going to have to edit that part, but in my, you know it, at the core typically is this belief of unworthiness and a disconnect from your higher self. Whatever your beliefs are and that's different for everybody it's a spiritual malady, a void, trying to fill this hole by filling it with, you know, external means, whether that's drugs, sex and food, whatever it is. So this revolving door, this rehab, you know, yes, insurance covers part of it, but it typically doesn't provide a deeper sense of an awakening and it doesn't physiologically interrupt the addiction. Right, these are the two things that's amazing about Ibogaine and unique when paired together. So people are typically put on something like Suboxone and we get people all the time who are on Suboxone and they feel dead inside. Yes, they're not dying, they're not doing fentanyl or using prescription pills, but they don't feel like living either. So Ibogaine has the ability to reconnect you to your purpose. It's a plant medicine. It connects you to the earth and your higher self while resetting. You know your various receptors, your opioid receptors. It works on serotonin, dopamine and your other elements as well. So that's how it's unique and you know people have said how can you cure?
Speaker 1:I mean, I went to AA for years after I did Ibogaine. Ibogaine was my catalyst and then I needed a daily program that taught me meditation, that taught me how to look at my own part. You know, a big part of addiction is resentment, right, and you blame everybody else but yourself. Everyone's the victim or no, you're the victim and everybody else is the perpetrator, and you lose your power in that right. So these medicines and a program like AA or some people hate AA, and that's fine too. Everybody has a different path but something like that puts you back in touch with your core power, right, and you go from victim to empowerment. And for me, I think I'd be dead without Ibogaine, because I wasn't on board with 12-step at these traditional rehabs I thought, you know, I felt like it was cult-like and I was following the masses. And only until I did Ibogaine had the clarity to see that 12-step isn't all bad. You can take what you need and leave the rest. As they say there Was I able to actually sit in those meetings, find connection with a few like-minded women and be of service to others, and so that really helped me.
Speaker 1:But the idea that Ibogaine is addictive I've heard that before. It's the opposite. It's not something you want to do all the time, even different from ayahuasca, because for somebody coming in for addiction it is a grueling process, the physical detox of it. It's not something where if you're an addict, you say I'll just keep doing Ibogaine every time I get addicted. No, you have to look at hard parts of yourself that you've been avoiding and that can be harder than getting re-addicted to opiates. And so for me, I never wanted to do Ibogaine again for addiction.
Speaker 1:It showed me all the ways I was selfish, all the ways you know.
Speaker 1:It was very challenging and thank God I've been able to work through a lot of that now, but I never want to go back to that again and I never want to harm myself again in that way and put poison into my body. That's what it showed me how I was poisoning myself, and that message and the physiological reset at the same time of not having the desire, not having the craving like that in itself is it was remarkable. So I mean, I'm loved, I'm open to speaking to anybody just in sharing my own experience and you know hundreds and hundreds of others that have come through for dependency issues. It is something that is highly effective as a tool. It is not a magic bullet. You have to do the work afterwards to maintain it, but it gets you way beyond most of the post-acute withdrawals and a lot of the other challenges that you might have with a traditional rehab. Sometimes you need to find a new way and seek a new way, and that's one way that Ibogaine is very useful.
Speaker 3:I'm really glad you said that about the magic bullet thing, because I do also think a lot of times people are looking for that one thing that's going to cure or fix what's broken. So with that we do a lot of like preparation and intention work before we usually do any other psychedelic. What does the process look like when someone's coming in for addiction or whatever Like how do you prepare them mentally and physically for what they're about to go through? Because I think that that's something that, like not a lot of people understand either. You're sitting here talking about how, like, how awful your journey was, but then how, like, towards the end, it was like this beautiful, like loving experience. So many people hear the negative and they're like, I don't want to do that. Why would you want to do something that would like show you how awful you're being to yourself? You know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think I accidentally didn't answer one of your earlier questions, which was how many times I've done Ibogaine. So the first time was for a serious addiction, when I was 22 years old and didn't know who I was and was very lost and that was tough. And then I've used it two more times in the last 15 years, since Three or four years after that I was in this very codependent relationship and I needed to look at my relationship with men and my father and that was incredibly illuminating. It showed me I had to physically move from New York City, away from this man and away from my father, who I love. I love my father very deeply, but there is some there was not anymore some really deep codependent issues there that I had, you know, then recreated in relationships with men. So I moved, ended up moving to California and now my relationship with my dad is much different and of course I let go of this. This person I was seeing and my relationship with my husband today is very real and very, you know, equal and beautiful. So that was a profound experience and much different than the first experience, right, because I was in a different place, my consciousness was in a different place and I was more open to receiving answers and making changes and it was easier and I knew how to navigate the medicine and I had more wisdom and I came in, you know, not addicted to anything chemically, so.
Speaker 1:And then the third time was about two and a half years ago with one of our lead nurse. She was in the bed next to me and I had just had, you know, I had a. I have two children. It was after having another children. I had some post child after having my first child, had some postpartum issues, had to go on SSRIs actually and you know, I know some people knock SSRIs in this space, but they are helpful for acute situations when needed or you can't judge people. Maybe they need them for life and that's fine too. But I felt a sort of numbness being on, I think, lexapro and Prozac After a year. It helped me get out of the ditch, but I wanted to get off of them. And Ibogaine has proven to be a really great reset and our clinical team and others help prepare people before the titrate off or people work with their you know psychiatrists to do so and then it provides a very, very profound reset, whereas you know it can be very hard to get off of SSRIs, but Ibogaine is good for that, so that was helpful. It also helped me with some other issues I had around fear and death, you know, and showed me why I had so much to live for and how I was also burnt out from building beyond and also trying to be a mother, and it helped me. I think it helped reset, sleep and did a bunch of various things, so that was more for optimization the third time.
Speaker 1:So, to answer your question, I've used it in different ways at different points in my life, with reverence, and I think about it a lot before. Do I really want to do this? Why am I doing this? And, to answer your last question, that sort of leads into that. So, yeah, we have a process. So people come to us. There's an admissions process.
Speaker 1:We personally match each person with a coach. We have about eight coaches that we work with. Each one has, of course, used Ibogaine themselves to heal, so they know what they're talking about and they can. They have used it for various things. So some coaches have used it more for burnout or optimization. Other coaches have used it more for had severe trauma. We have veterans too. We're launching a whole veterans program coming soon. We've treated a number of veterans but we haven't had a specific veteran program and for other first responders, and then, you know, of course, for dependency issues too. So they'll people will no matter. People will be matched with a coach and they'll have two sessions before they come and that is extremely helpful in understanding what they want to get out of it and why. And then they'll arrive on site and we have daily workshops and a very thorough workbook around that's tailored to each individual, around what they're trying to get out of this, what they want to ask themselves, what they want to ask the medicine, what they want to heal, and that is very powerful because we've discovered that peer-to-peer support is very useful. So sitting in a group and being able to talk through why you're there and and beyond, unique in that you know a lot of retreat centers.
Speaker 1:Everyone comes at all at the, you know, on the same day. We're open 365 days a year and people are coming and going every day. So people arrive and they have a lot of fear, and that's normal. Ibogaine is a big medicine. They're also very excited. But to be able to see somebody and meet somebody who's like you, who's eight days ahead and has already worked with Ibogaine and already worked with some of the smaller booster doses. We call them secondary doses. They see, oh wow, this is profound. I see the change in the person and I see that it's not so scary. So those are the group workshops.
Speaker 1:People bring their workbooks, they fill out, you know one, you know there's various activities that are very useful. One is like what are my gems? What am, what am I good at doing here in life? And you know, you get the traditional banker, who's miserable, in their job and they're able to say, well, I'm an artist and or I love, you know, making, um, I love making things. And well, you know, they leave. And then they know that they need to spend more time, no matter what, even though it's easy to say normally, like with your traditional therapist, I'm going on the weekends create more art, or I'm going to start a company, um, that you know works with videography and dancers or whatever. And they actually go and do it after the Ibogaine and then we help them architect like very practical steps on how they can do it. So it's not just some pie in the sky idea, that's just one example. So, and then, when this continues to happen their whole stay. There's this daily workshop and workbook and then, when they leave, they continue to work with this coach and then, as I said, they have these weekly alumni therapy and mindfulness sessions that are free, ongoing for alumni. So those are ways that they can, you know, prepare and integrate what they've learned. And then many people connect and they stay in touch and they start WhatsApp groups with all their fellow alumni and that daily cold plunge sessions.
Speaker 1:We have a cold plunge that's running all the time so people can jump in, but we also have coaches and fitness coaches doing, you know, hiit and we have, oh, daily massage. That is very important. We had a woman come, a Black woman, amazing woman, who was adopted, had never connected with her family, did Ibogaine and had a very powerful somatic massage and released all of her ancestors. She was holding in her back like from, you know, way back in her lineage, like she was carrying their suffering and she saw slavery and she saw these images and that just shows you, like, the importance of touching, you know, the importance of the somatic, but also why people need to try different tools with these medicines.
Speaker 1:So, whether it's talk therapy or, you know, coaching or somatic or cold plunge, and these are things people continue to do after they leave and maybe they've tried them in the past, but they've never been offered in this way. They continue to do a cold plunge every morning when they jump in the ocean or they turn on the shower. They continue to meditate, and we do work with people like Tara Brock. Do you know her? She's a great meditation teacher. She's recorded we do some Joe Dispenza recordings, just depending on what people like, and so it's very customized. But there's also a number of healing tools that can be connected. There's sound healing, there's cacao ceremony, so we try to give every person something that they can take home and integrate with ongoing so how long are people there Like if, if I mean you had us at human design and then you really got me at that massage.
Speaker 1:So people are with us. It depends what's going on and that's also customized. But if they're coming more for health and optimization, they're with us for six days. If they're coming for severe trauma, they're with us for 10 days and if they're coming for more severe reasons I mean we've had people stay with us 30, 40, 50, 55 days and we're able to get a lot done in that time. And we have, essentially, for the optimization person, maybe they'll do one big Ibogaine flood dose and that's enough and they'll know that it's enough for them. They got everything they need. But for others that have more severe trauma or dependency issues, we do other doses afterwards that are smaller, they're a couple hours and they're able to go deeper and get more Ibogaine in their system deeper and get more Ibogaine in their system. So, yeah, it just depends and that's something that people can discuss with our pre-admissions team when they, you know, go through the website and book a free complimentary call just to see if it's a good fit.
Speaker 3:Leah, you ready? Yeah, are you hiring any human design readers? No, just kidding.
Speaker 1:Yeah, If you come down you can teach a class. I mean, we would love that.
Speaker 3:So you mentioned something earlier, that about it really helping with SSRI addiction. I don't think people realize they can get addicted to SSRIs Like it is like very, it's not that.
Speaker 2:I don't think people talked about and I don't think people realize the thing and really get addicted to anything.
Speaker 3:That's also true.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean. Cause it's like she was talking about phones and and that dopamine high and all like. I feel like we live in a world where we're all kind of addicted to something and it's hard to not be like like I have to, I've recently had to put blocks on my phone. So it's like, from 10 to two, you are not on social media.
Speaker 1:From nine to seven o'clock in the morning you are not on social media because otherwise it's just, it's so thoughtless and but yes, ssris, definitely that's so, yeah, I just want to say, well, the way that our system is built not to get too I don't know out there or not, I don't know Capitalism is built to make us want and crave and think we're less than that is the biggest disorder of our time.
Speaker 1:The system that we live in tells us we're not enough and we need these things outside of ourselves to feel better, and that's what the dopamine squirt does for us. Ssris, you know, can be very helpful, as I said, for people, but, yeah, stop taking them and your body needs them. They are physically, there's a physical dependency there and for some people that's much better than being, you know, living a life of deep depression and they need that and they need that balance and that to be even keeled. But certainly, yeah, your body becomes dependent on it, and that you know. I remember. I remember like going to Miami from New York and forgetting to bring the pills and then two days later feeling just very down. So that is real, that is very much real.
Speaker 3:So do you have to titrate off of these medications before you do Ibogaine, or is Ibogaine something that you would be able to do on medications and then titrate off after?
Speaker 1:It depends typically on the medication. But for most SSRIs you have to slowly titrate off and that's something that our medical team can address with people. Typically you titrate under the care of a psychiatrist that you work with and some people microdose. I'm not telling people to do that because legally we can't, but that does help to get off of SSRIs, I mean, or it does help for some. There's proof of that. So that is a process for preparation.
Speaker 1:Ibogaine does have contradictions, contraindications with certain medications, and our medical team is really well versed in that, better than me. But yeah, you do have to titrate off over. It depends on the medication. We have a whole list of you know what and how many days off, and the titration really is about people's own rate. It depends how sensitive you are. You know you don't want to go so quickly where you can't function in your daily life. So that's something to work with a psychiatrist on. But yeah, and then the reset that it provides is very helpful for most and some people do need to get back on later, but in general you know it's helped a number. I've seen it help a lot of people get off for good, to be honest.
Speaker 2:So yeah, and you're located in Cancun, Mexico.
Speaker 1:Correct. We're located in Cancun and I live here with my husband and our kids. We moved here because we believe in this tool so much and the work that is happening.
Speaker 2:When did you open the treatment center?
Speaker 1:We opened in 2021 and we opened with a few clinical team members who have many, many years of experience in Ibogaine and were able to help write our Ibogaine medical protocols. So we had a lot of experience on the team. But Beyond itself, has been open since 2021.
Speaker 3:I feel like maybe I read this somewhere. I could be wrong, but did it used to be a legal treatment in the US and somehow was taken away? What are the legalities and why is it only legal in some countries and not others?
Speaker 1:Yeah, sure. So you know what happened in the 60s and 70s with all psychedelics. I mean, they were all legal at a point, you see, with LSD and the government was trying to work with it, the CIA, and they all became illegal and without much research. So people didn't I began very obscure right. They didn't understand what it could do, its properties to relieve addiction or help with support with PTSD. So it was banned and for a while, yeah, it was available in Europe and it was used for focus and in places it was also used for sexual virality and other things, in small amounts, I think. In France it was called Lamberine. Good to know. There's a whole history on Wikipedia you can look at.
Speaker 1:But essentially, what happened is this incredible man named Howard Lotsoff discovered it years ago after it was made illegal. He was, he happened to be an opiate addict and he was given, it was given to him by somebody and it he used it as a psychonaut, just to have a trip, and he realized the next day like wow, I don't have, I have. You know, I'm not having cravings and I'm not, I don't, I, I have deep. Essentially, it provides a rapid detox for people I don't have the sweating, shaking, barfing, um from coming off and I don't want opiates anymore. So then he launched on a personal mission with himself and some of his colleagues, friends, to treat other friends and they were part of the underground movement in the U S, in Europe and started treating other people, you know, in hotel rooms, without doctors, before understanding really the cardiac risk.
Speaker 1:But he is the Western godfather of this medicine, him and his wife, norma, and he passed away sadly. But she's 85 years old and you know, maybe that's something we can offer people who listen to this. You know she's living on welfare, sadly, and doesn't have funds to pay for her apartment and we try to help her out monthly and there's a campaign that was just launched to donate money to her to help her live the last few years of her life in peace. But we can share that link. But that's an incredible story and there's a film coming out that our colleague, lucy Walker, she did how to Change your Mind with Michael Pollan on Netflix. We've talked with Lucy.
Speaker 3:We've talked with Lucy.
Speaker 1:Oh great, she's a friend and she was just at Beyond filming and she had her own treatment. She's open to saying that at Beyond and she's making a film now that is just wrapping up, called Of Night and Light. You can also drop a link about that and I think it was. You know has been featured in a bunch of indie film festivals but it's not yet public. It will be and that's about the story of Ibogaine in the West featuring Howard Lotsoff and this whole story of how this movement has snowballed and up until modern times and modern clinics that have robust medical care and coaching and support and veterans and PTSD, so not just for addictions.
Speaker 1:But that's an important thing to look out in her film that will be out soon, just on Ibogaine. She didn't want to feature it on. She Told Me how to Change your Mind because she thought Ibogaine deserves its own film of all the psychedelics. So that that's really cool.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's huge. So what are some other? What are some like misconceptions or myths that are out there about? You don't really hear about it a lot, so I feel like I don't know any myths.
Speaker 2:And I feel like people who are newer to like learning about psychedelics haven't really heard much about ibogaine.
Speaker 3:Right, but are there any misconceptions out there about this medicine?
Speaker 1:Well, the biggest myth is that it's just for addiction, right? Oh yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean there's so many cases now that it works for, you know, things like memory loss, things like nervous system disorders, things like nervous system disorders, like central nervous system disorders, like Parkinson's, tremors, you know Lyme's it really is a medicine that can heal so much because it does affect so much of the brain, I think and there's a lot more research that's being done Wow, the fact that I think it's worth sharing the link to the Stanford study that just came out. That's very powerful to have Dr Nolan Williams at Stanford studying this for PTSD and traumatic brain injury. We're seeing NFL players and wrestlers and people who have severe TB and veterans, of course, who have survived blasts in the Middle East coming. So it's not just a tool for addiction, it is very profound and it does last a long time in your system and you can create deep change. So that's the biggest misconception, I think.
Speaker 2:I'm glad you actually brought up the Lyme disease because I literally just sent a video to Leah yesterday. I was just in a Pilates class and I've got this we both have this mushroom tattoo on our arm and I like forget that it's there. And I'm just in class and this woman, random woman next to me, she's like what's that mushroom for? And I'm just in class and this woman, random woman next to me, she's like what's that mushroom for? And I'm like, oh gosh, she does. I don't know if she's somebody who knows anything about psychedelics, but here we go and I and I, and so you know she's like this 50 some year old woman. And I told her I said, well, I've, I've found a lot of um healing with plant medicine and, and mushrooms was the first plant medicine that I use and now I have a podcast about it and she goes that's, that's really fascinating.
Speaker 2:And I'm glad I'm sitting next to you today in this workout because my son has Lyme disease, um, and tomorrow is his last ketamine treatment and he really it really hasn't done much for him and it's it's Lyme disease has really impacted his quality of life and he's done everything. He's done pills and, but she's like it's, he's 18 and he's, he's, he's not the same person he used to be, and we're just trying anything and everything to like get our son back, and so, um, I will, we exchange numbers, um, of course, and, uh, I sent her the podcast, but I will have to send her.
Speaker 3:I know I'm going to send her this episode and your information, because they are desperate.
Speaker 1:So yes, we're not exactly sure how it works for Lyme, but there's a number of anecdotes, even online, that she can look at. One of our advisors who's a PhD, he has Lyme and Ibogaine has really helped him. And I'm thinking of a individual in his twenties who is with us who ended up coming back with his dad because he wanted his dad to have the experience because it was so profound. He had Lyme's and it helped him and now he's going to medical school and it's totally made it so he can function in the world. I mean, that's an incredible case, but I think there's been quite a number of them and we're starting to publish more case studies.
Speaker 1:We now just hired a head of research. We collect all of our data. I think it's like 187 data points per client. It's all anonymous, of course, we don't use people's names. But, yeah, we are starting to develop these different case studies for different symptoms and scenarios. So we'll be able to report on that more soon and you know, using surveys, how much it's helped them to what degree. But I'd certainly be happy to speak to this individual and even connect her son with past clients who it's helped. We never know like it may work, it may not, but we've seen it work. We can say that it has a pretty, it's pretty useful.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I will send her this episode and send her y'all's way. I think she's. You know. I think sometimes people get to a point where they're like they're willing to do anything.
Speaker 1:They're willing to try anything. Yeah, that's how I was willing to try anything. The traditional methods didn't work and that's how we're able to find new technologies that we can bring to others in the world. So that's really cool, and thank you for your tattoo and the fact that you're out in the world and inspiring. Especially, you guys are both in Kentucky. Yeah, yeah, unfortunately, I love that.
Speaker 3:No, I was literally just having this thought. Like she's talking about all these different places. I'm like God, we live in the wrong place. But, as I was saying that, I'm like you know, I think I live in the right place because not a lot of people hear about this stuff here. You may want to say that again, so it doesn't get edited Like not a lot of people in Kentucky are aware of these different types of modalities and also where we are.
Speaker 3:Our region is like one of the worst off as far as like opiate addiction and the crisis that you know we're having where we are right now. So this work is extremely important here.
Speaker 2:Well, and we've kind of, with the podcast, we've kind of become the spokespeople of mushrooms and plant medicine, because there really aren't many people who are, you know, talking openly about this, and we're two moms who are doing that and it's, you know, in a state that's not necessarily so progressive with this.
Speaker 1:Thanks, Thanks for doing that. Yeah, I have sent. You are in the right place.
Speaker 1:I have spent some time as I said in the before we started recording, in Kentucky in the last year working on this Kentucky at Kentucky Ibogaine opiate abatement funding.
Speaker 1:That didn't actually go through for, sadly, for political reasons, the powers that be and big pharma, but I spent time there with locals and you know I did go get my hair done and nobody knew about Ibogaine and the education that has come through from the Kentucky Ibogaine Project in Kentucky and we've even had a number of guests from Kentucky who wouldn't have known about it is remarkable. So it's great that you guys are there and I myself am from Omaha, nebraska, and never it was a dream of mine that these technologies and plant medicines would come to the Midwest and it's starting to happen. So I was just in Omaha last weekend and there was a massive gathering festival for consciousness, for climate change, for psychedelics on Lakota lands. This very wealthy individual who's from Omaha has launched this project to bring people from all over the world. I was with psychedelic researchers and climate change activists and such incredible Lakota people and Buddhist monks and a monk from Bhutan and in Omaha, nebraska or an hour outside of.
Speaker 1:Omaha. I never thought that would happen and to see, like as a little girl, my dream, I had to go out and find it. I moved to New York, I lived in Istanbul and moved to Northern California in the last 25 years and now here. I always had to go find it and acquire these friends and people. And here I walk into this event, you know, and I'm running to like 60 people, I know, but from all over the world not connected to Omaha, and I was like, wow, it is true, all roads, that's the. You know, it's easy to be in LA or to be in New York and we're in a bubble, but for it to spread to the middle America, it's, you know, exactly, exactly, I think, what's needed. So I'm glad you guys are there and doing this work and I'm very appreciative of that. Thank you.
Speaker 3:Talia, thank you so much for all the information that you shared today. I hope we stay in touch.
Speaker 2:I'm genuinely interested.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Curious, you guys are welcome.
Speaker 1:We can. We can talk more about that and figure out when and how and let's do that and then maybe you can share with your audience. You know what your perception of Ibogaine was like and what your intentions were, and you know how you're integrating afterwards and the insights, and that would be really cool. So, uh, we do have a program for um people like yourselves that want to come and share and share authentically, um create content and uh, yeah, we, we would love that.
Speaker 2:So we'll talk more about it. Yeah, I'll email you.
Speaker 3:Okay, thank you so much literally, for what you're doing in the world and your husband for being the amazing partner.
Speaker 2:We saw that connection, we saw that love when he was helping you. That was adorable.
Speaker 1:He's helping me. Yeah, this was a vision of mine. This is my purpose here on the planet, and he understands that he's the CEO and he's, he's executing. Really I can do a little bit, but he's, you know, he's devoted.
Speaker 3:What's your human design? What are you?
Speaker 1:Manifesting, I think, projector, oh you mean generator no manifesting generator.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Manifesting generator.
Speaker 2:Do you know what your personality type is like?
Speaker 1:your numbers. I think I'm a six okay, interesting.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we're three, five.
Speaker 2:So like we are like the experimenters and then we're meant to talk about what we've experimented with and the lessons we've learned by what we did, whether we fucked up or did it.
Speaker 3:Good, you guys are doing that. Send us any links that you have. I clipped a few things so if I can, I can find some. You know websites that you mentioned and sites that you mentioned and the GoFundMe for um Norma.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and can you share how people can find you on social media?
Speaker 1:Yeah, sure it's just beyond that. U? S, beyond us. B E O N D. No, why we don't ask why? Why is not a spiritual question?
Speaker 3:Oh, I love that so much. Okay, there's some meaning that I was. I was wondering why there wasn't a why in there. I love that so much. Thank you All right, and to our listeners, we hope you gained so much out of today, cause we know we did um, stay curious, be open and we'll see you guys on the other side.
Speaker 1:See you all on the other side, don't hang up the great the great, beyond the beyond.
