See You On The Other Side
Meet Leah and Christine. Busy moms and entrepreneurs just trying to balance this crazy thing called life. But we don't do surface, and we're definitely not your typical momtrepreneurs...so let's go a little deeper. Empaths, traumatic childhoods, generational trauma, people pleasers, toxic relationship patterns, anxiety, depression, feeling stuck and desperately seeking peace and happiness. And then we fell into the world of magic mushrooms and psychedelics. The catalyst that helped us break out of our comfort zones and took us DEEP into our personal healing journeys. We'll take you behind the scenes as we learn more about the holistic side of healing and all the amazing people we plan on meeting along the way. Join us as we share the good, the bad, and the ugly side of healing. With and without psychedelics. We hope to see you on the other side! Note: We are not professionals and we do not advise the use of illegal substances. For more about psychedelic support or clinical trials in your area, visit https://psychedelic.support/
See You On The Other Side
91 | The Dark Night of the Soul...and the Other Side
Ever felt the ground crumble beneath your feet, questioning everything you thought you knew? Join us as we unpack the "dark night of the soul," a phase of profound spiritual desolation and existential doubt. Inspired by our listeners who have experienced this season, we share our own harrowing experiences, discuss the emotional upheaval, and explore how these challenging times are crucial for deeper spiritual growth. Discover how feeling abandoned can ultimately lead to a closer, more mature union with the divine, and the vital importance of a supportive community during this turbulent journey.
Imagine finding clarity through a psychedelic experience, only to face the collapse of your support system. We dive into a personal story where the use of psychedelics to combat depression, only led to newfound clarity that clashed with the expectations of a husband and mother-in-law. Learn about the emotional manipulation and conflict avoidance that ensued, and the painful but necessary steps of establishing boundaries and self-respect within controlling relationships. We shed light on the struggles of dealing with narcissistic behaviors and the courage it takes to prioritize personal well-being.
Parent-child relationships, lifelong friendships, and the transformative power of personal growth are also on the agenda. We tackle the emotional reassessment of deeply ingrained beliefs about our parents, the growing trend of millennials going no-contact, and the heart-wrenching experience of losing friendships due to personal evolution. Through raw and introspective discussions, we aim to provide you with the tools and support needed to navigate these complex dynamics. So, tune in and join us as we remind you that there is light on the other side of these challenging journeys, and that resilience, community, and self-acceptance are key to emerging stronger.
If you are going through a similar journey and need a metaphoric hand to hold through the process, you can book a call with either one of us through the link in our bio and here: https://www.syotospodcast.com/booking
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here we go one more time, everybody's feeling fine, here we go. Now. Yes, yes, yes, here we go. In sync has got the flow.
Speaker 2:I didn't know that was in sync moving hands to the beat.
Speaker 1:We got everything you need. Here we go now I know the song.
Speaker 2:I was never an NSYNC girly. Welcome back to See you on the Other Side. Hello friends, hey guys, today's episode was inspired by a listener Altered roads we're looking at you. Oh, we're calling her out. Yeah, she did say're calling her out. Yeah, she did say we could. Yeah, she did say we could. Altered roads message. Just I hate that. I like I know everybody by their instagram handle it's funny, because you were asking me someone.
Speaker 1:You're like, do you know this person? Like she's my friend blah blah, and I was like oh, and I literally you said her instagram name, just said her instagram name said her Instagram name she's like and you're like yeah, that's how we know you guys.
Speaker 2:I hate that, but it's also like it's kind of cute and endearing. It's like your little nicknames. Yes, so where did my notes go? She messaged us, asking us about what we knew about the dark night of the soul.
Speaker 1:We've never really covered it, no, and we both have gone through it, and probably a lot of our listeners also have gone through it, but they don't know that that's what it is and that's what it's called.
Speaker 2:I didn't know that's what it was until I was out of it and was like holy shit, that's what I went through. I also think that we have talked about out of it and was like holy shit, that's what I went through. Um, I also think that we have talked about it but never really put the name to it. Okay, that's yeah. And I think sometimes when we talk about how hard this journey is, like what we're really kind of doing a disservice to like the severity of how hard it is. I think with the name, I like I love a label.
Speaker 2:I think you do love a label I really feel like labels help you understand things better. Spectrums help you understand that it's not black and white like I love a fucking label. Um, so what this is called is the dark night of the soul. Can you kind of explain it in your, with your understanding? So she messaged us and was like what do you guys know about this? And I was like, oh girl, let me tell you. Um, because she's kind of been going through that and it can be dark and heavy and mucky, and we literally just talked about it in the last episode that we did with Meg. She brought it up how heavy and hard it can be, but again, she didn't use the word dark night of the soul either.
Speaker 1:And I also think of it as like also to like questioning everything you thought you knew, yeah, and realizing that a lot of those things were wrong.
Speaker 2:Conditioning like Like doesn't align with you anymore. Right, right, right.
Speaker 1:Like the conspiracy theories, you're like I believe that now, like it's everything that you thought, literally you knew has just been wiped away.
Speaker 2:Your truth has been ripped out from under you. Yes, lonely, isolating, um, very hard, heavy, dark part, yeah, of this process. It's a dark place to be. Yeah, I let me kind of give the description that I found um, because this kind of describes it perfectly.
Speaker 2:The dark night of the soul is a term used to describe a period of intense spiritual desolation, confusion and inner turmoil. It's originated from the writings of the 16th century Spanish mystic, saint John of the Cross, and it refers to a phase in the spiritual journey where an individual feels abandoned by God and experiences profound existential doubt. This period is often characterized by a sense of emptiness, depression and a loss of direction. Despite its challenges, the dark night is considered a crucial part of spiritual growth and it leads ultimately to a deeper, more mature faith and a closer union with the divine. Leads ultimately to a deeper, more mature faith and a closer union with the divine.
Speaker 2:So we were having a back and forth dialogue and I was letting her know, like, you're not alone, we went through this as well. We just didn't have a platform when we were going through it in that way. I know that mine was a couple of years before yours and it was it got really fucking dark. I have opened up about how, after that first journey, I fell into a deep dark depression and I feel like this was part of it, like I was seeing things that no one else around me was seeing, and I don't mean like hallucinating. Can you elaborate on that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, because and the reason why I'm bringing this up is because, like, that was probably a really tough time in your marriage too, right? Because, absolutely, your Jason, your husband was not on this journey yet and you were, and so you really like, at least I had you and I had the support of Tony Like he didn't understand it, but he wasn't.
Speaker 2:Like you know, jason was still deep in addiction when you, and also I think that when we tell people that you need support, I think sometimes they think from their lens will I have support.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I felt the same way I felt like before my first mushroom journey. And here's the thing Spiritual awakenings can happen with or without psychedelics. I think sometimes psychedelics kind of bring it on much quicker and sometimes they happen because you've had like an existential loss or you know something, you hit rock bottom or you lost something. Then that happens. But I think that doing a journey kind of puts you on the fast track to some sort of awakening.
Speaker 2:And so for me, before I did I'm saying that because my spiritual awakening happened because I did mushrooms and I wasn't expecting what came after my husband was very much in support of me not being depressed anymore, was very supportive, like sure I'll, I'll pay for you to go have this done, sure I'll, I'll pay for you to go have this done. And you know when you get back and hopefully you'll be better and I support this new, you know whole, improved version of you where you're not depressed all the time and um. And he was super supportive until I came home and that also meant I can't be in this environment anymore unless things change.
Speaker 1:So from his lens he was like you go, do whatever you need to do, You're the problem Right. You're the problem and you come back and you're happy and then we'll be good. Yeah, but what in actuality it was? It was like you got this insight and you're like and again, this is like the integration part of it.
Speaker 1:Okay, I had this lesson, or I had this experience, and now I want to change myself. I want to change our how we are in our relationship, like our home, and he was probably like whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, we Whoa. That's exactly what he was saying.
Speaker 2:Like what the actual fuck? I I'm not fucking changing, like I didn't do a journey, like you were supposed to do this journey and get all better. And so what I found during that first year after doing mushrooms is that my support system fell apart. The people that I thought would support me the most were working against me. Should I get into that? Oh, let's fucking go.
Speaker 1:You know I'm down to fucking go there. You're always down to go there, yeah, so I'm going to be rooting for to fucking go there.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You're always down to go there, yeah, so I'm going to be rooting for you to go there.
Speaker 2:I was very close for our entire relationship. I've been with my husband for 18 years and I very quickly attached to his mother as the only girl in the family, the daughter she never had. She to me, was a very she was the mother figure that I didn't really have growing up attached to her very quickly. Um, we were very close. I would even say closer to her than my husband was to her, her than my husband was to her. For years she has been.
Speaker 2:You need help. You have all this childhood trauma, like you're married to an alcoholic. You really need to get help. You can't do this alone. So I did that and it's almost like doing that also made me see her and who she really was and the way that their family brushed stuff under the rug and you just you deal with it because they're family and you don't have hard conversations and you don't have hard conversations, like I just started to see a lot of the similarities in my relationship to my husband and the way that he dealt with conflict.
Speaker 2:I was literally going to say conflict. The way that I dealt with conflict before was to pretend it wasn't there and forgive and forget. What about him? How did he deal with conflict? He didn't. I mean he drank yeah, he drank or he would give me the silent treatment. And I noticed his mom did all the same me the silent treatment. And I noticed his mom did all the same things the silent treatment. The silent treatment when she didn't get her way. She would be upset with someone for months and not tell them why, but then get upset that they weren't reaching out and asking her why. But we were like, we didn't know, you were mad, like just like this, like it was just something that I saw for the first time.
Speaker 1:And can I bring something up? So this morning we're we're having uh, just like a conversation about just business, yeah, and you said to me something like I'm I'm like worried, like you're not gonna like you're you're not gonna tell me if I'm like whatever, pulling like more weight or yeah. Yeah, and I'm like Leah, like you know me, like you know that I would tell you, I would, I would, I would share that with you. But I think you are very, um like still conditioned in a little bit of ways because of the just the people that you've, you've been around, that they're going to like be mad at you and then like exile you and then not even tell you. And I'm like, leah, like you like, I will, I will communicate with you.
Speaker 2:I didn't think about it that way. But, yeah, it turned into a year of fucking hell because I started speaking up um mainly to my husband, because my mother-in-law um avoided me, refused to have a conversation with me, continued to say you know what you did wrong and I'm like I don't know what I did wrong. Please tell me what I did wrong, because I don't know what I did wrong. You know what it was and I'm like I I genuinely don't Gaslighting. I genuinely if it would be so much easier if you could just tell me what I did to upset you. Yeah, but you just keep saying I should know and I need to apologize. I don't even know what I'm apologizing for.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but that first year was hell because she turned against me. She was trying to turn my husband against me. I'm like getting shaky in my voice right now. And this is all going back to that support system, because the people that I was closest to in my life really just left me out to fucking die.
Speaker 2:And she was telling my husband like she's crazy, like her mom, you can't fix her, she's controlling, which is so wild to me because for years she used to tell me like she knew his drinking was a problem and she used to always say, like you need to put your foot down and you need to let him know that you're not going to stick around if he's going to continue this behavior. And so when I started doing that, I became controlling, I became the bad guy, I became the crazy one and I'm like literally over in my corner, like just trying to fucking heal and learning to speak up for myself and learning that sweeping things under the rug doesn't work for me anymore and realizing that the silent treatment is abuse and calling it out when it happened. So I became the bad guy in my support group because I was calling things out as I saw them.
Speaker 1:When you guys before you started this journey, when when you were like deep in people pleaser mode, did you guys really get along and she was involved in your relationship because she got to be like a part of your relationship, because she was she was she would say like you need to put your foot down. Was she saying you need to get your shit together and you need to stop drinking? And you need to stop Like. That's what I find very interesting about this.
Speaker 2:She had my side almost a hundred percent of the time.
Speaker 1:She compared him, but she kind of did it.
Speaker 2:I know, I know she, but she meddled a lot. There were times where things were off and she'd be like what's going on? Is something going on? And I'd be like, no, we're fine. She's like, leah, I can tell something's going on. What's going on? So I would confide in her with a lot of things. She knew a lot of stuff about our marriage, so that was I'm like remembering.
Speaker 2:Now I set a boundary with her after my journey and I said I can't come to you with stuff from our relationship anymore. It's not helping, it's kind of messed up that like I'm involving you in our marriage. I don't want to do that anymore. This is something that we need to figure out. And that was not okay with her and she was like, well, you've been doing this for 15 years and I'm like I know that, but I'm telling you I'm not doing it anymore. I will talk to you about the kids, I will talk to you about other things going on, but I am not going to come to you with our relationship anymore. That was not okay with her.
Speaker 2:I feel like she felt like she had to be needed. She felt like she had to be the voice of reason and really what it was doing was like pitting my husband's mom against him, and so I was like this doesn't feel right to me anymore. It feels ick. Yeah, I don't want to do it anymore. We're going to go to therapy instead. I did say that to her one time and that pissed her off. Like I didn't say it in that way, but she was like she said we didn't need, she didn't need us anymore because she has a therapist. I'm like I'm relieving you of this pressure, because you always say you wish you didn't know what went on behind closed doors. So I am relieving you of this pressure Now you know boundary.
Speaker 1:You don't have to do anything right. It's me removing myself from right.
Speaker 2:All I'm saying is I'm not going to tell you the one doing the work. You don't have to do anything.
Speaker 1:You don't have to do the work. You don't have to do anything. You don't have to do anything, and you don't have to fucking like it either, right, sorry, yeah.
Speaker 2:It was a lot. So, on top of that, and just seeing the way some of my friendships were and how I people pleased my way into some questionable friendships because I didn't want to hurt the other person or I felt bad or I let this person walk all over me and we always did what this person wanted to do and I would get anxious when they wanted to hang out because I knew that I was going to leave feeling drained. You know, like I was going fucking through it, having all of these realizations, and it was so hard because I went through it alone I don't like saying that because I did have my friend Sarah, but that's another level too because she wasn't going through the awakening that I was going through.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you didn't have me either. Cause.
Speaker 2:I didn't have you.
Speaker 1:Well, I didn't. I didn't know what the fuck you were doing with your life.
Speaker 2:I was just doing drugs.
Speaker 1:For me like it never came from, like I never like judged you. I listened to the podcast, like when you guys talked about like cannabis and all of that, but I just didn't there. Like when you guys talked about like cannabis and all of that, but I just didn't, there wasn't judgment.
Speaker 2:I just didn't understand that world yet, yeah, yeah I get it so like if you would have been like, you and I also weren't close, Right. So there was a lot of like. I felt like my world was crumbling in around me, the people that I thought loved me the most. And I remember a year later and this is something that I have talked about that like deep, dark depression that I fell into a year after my first mushroom journey, where I was having suicidal ideations and it was the lowest I ever got, and my husband was watching me have these breakdowns almost daily, at this point where I am like wailing on the floor crying out what the fuck is wrong with me, that everyone is leaving me, like why am I all of a sudden the bad guy and I am just trying to get better, like it fucked with me so much because I don't know. I genuinely, to this day, still don't know what I did wrong in that relationship. I do now. I do now, but I do now because and here's the thing too, too like my husband fought me on it for so long where I was like don't you see what she's doing? And he's like you're fucking crazy, that's not what's happening. And then he did a mushroom journey and slowly started to see the same shit and it fucked his world up too, because he was like holy shit, you were right. I don't know what to do with this information. Like she's she won't listen to me. Like it it's.
Speaker 2:It's been an ongoing journey and it still has been, and it got really ugly and maybe one day we can talk about, like the depths, narcissists in that way and how fucking detrimental it can be to your mental health when you are enmeshed in a narcissistic relationship. It almost broke me and I feel really bad for people who are to the point where, okay, this is what I'm going to say and I'm going to I'm. I'm trying to be careful with my words here. I wished for a very long time that I didn't know what I knew. I wished that I could go back to not knowing. And it doesn't even change the person that she was. She was always that person. I watched it play out in other relationships for 15 years. I watched it happen over and over. It had just never happened to me. I wish I don't anymore, but I used to wish I could go back to not seeing what I saw, because then I would still be in her good graces.
Speaker 2:Yes, it wouldn't have been real. But once I saw what I saw, I couldn't unsee it and I wasn't even like vocal about it with her. You know, know what I mean? I think she should. She could just sense that I was like firm and I was like no, I'm sticking with these boundaries, like this is my boundary and you don't have to like it. And got more and more distant. I got more and more distant. I got so much pushback.
Speaker 2:I have recorded conversations where they have tried to gaslight Well, this is the first time you've ever talked about boundaries with us. And I'm like I know that's why I'm having this conversation. Well, you don't get to decide that. And I'm like no, I do. Though One of the things that they said to me when I say they, it was like his mom and his stepdad would in a family conversation, and it was all about like us going to them with our relationship problems, because they were kind of the mediator in a lot of situations with us. Um, well, you came to us and you said you're not going to do this anymore, but you've been steering. You know, this ship has been going for 15 years and now, all of a sudden, you get to decide that you're not going to steer it in this direction anymore. That's not how that works and I'm like no, but it is, and also I can do whatever the fuck I want in my own marriage.
Speaker 2:It's my ship, right, I get to choose who's on board and which direction I'm going. So I absolutely do get to change the direction and the course of this ship. And if I don't want you guys to know about what's happening in our marriage, I don't have to tell you. It's that simple. So sorry, that was a little side tangent, just to kind of prove that. Like if you would have told me before my mushroom journey that these people would turn on me or that my support system would have been not so great, I would have like been like you don't know my support system. They're great.
Speaker 2:They really want me to be better. They want me. They want the best for me, they want the best for me. Where that switches is when what's best for you means that the people in your life have to also change, or they don't have to. They don't have to change, but you're going to change the way that you interact with those people, and that's why I think that those support systems that we think we have going in are sometimes not the best, especially when you're in the middle of an awakening, like it's to your detriment that.
Speaker 1:Well, and to add to this, there have been people who we have sat with and they've been like, yeah, I don't want to be in this marriage anymore. This is a very like this, this, like I've hit the end of the road, or like I want to leave my job, or like there, there can be very big realizations that come from this that also affect other people in your life, and those other people may not like those big changes Right, yeah, but those changes are necessary. That's why you're struggling in the first place.
Speaker 2:And it's also like but this is my journey, right, but I'm not asking you to change, or well, I was asking my husband to change, yeah, cause it was either like if you don't change, I have to leave, like I am going to have to walk away because this is way too fucking toxic, but again, environment for me, you're healing.
Speaker 1:You're finding yourself. Who's going to have a problem with you changing?
Speaker 2:What types of people? The people who benefited from you being the way that you were before Right.
Speaker 1:The people who benefited from your suffering. Yeah, so.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. I think my suffering made her feel like she was. You were in it with her.
Speaker 1:Yeah, misery loves company she was suffering too, and so you guys, like we, bonded on a lot of you trauma bonded, we absolutely trauma bonded, like we bonded on so many things like oh, you don't have a relationship with your mother, and neither do I, but she chose, oh you married an alcoholic.
Speaker 1:So did I. She chose to stay in that trauma, though, yeah, where I feel like healing is like learning to like. It takes time and it takes, you know, a lot of work, but it's like learning to like be okay, sitting with yourself, learning to find the joy, learning to find the happiness.
Speaker 2:Well, and that was the thing too, like when we were in the height of like the things that were happening, there were people she was like defending herself, like. But I've gone through this and I've gone through this and you have to forgive me and I'm like I have also gone through ABCD, like I think you're forgetting that we had very similar childhoods and upbringings and marriages. I've also gone through those things, but I've healed those things not healed, but I am healing those things and I'm not using them as an excuse to be the way that I was. I used to, but I don't anymore of all of that was like the spiritual awakening part of it which really fucked me up a little bit, because I used to be, I was raised Christian, but I was always a rebel, never really fully believed in it. Um, so I was I would consider myself, um, maybe an atheist or an agnostic before my mushroom journey and the things that started to happen and I'm not just talking like number signs. I did see a lot of number signs, but the things that started to happen in my life after my journey couldn't have been explained in any other way other than there was some type of higher power stepping in and I couldn't ignore it. I was like what the fuck is happening? I don't believe in God, but there is something bigger than me here and everything I thought I ever knew is has literally just been turned upside down. Um, so, anyway, all of that to say, a year later, when I was in my deep dark depression, I ended up doing another journey and it pulled me out of the dark place and it kind of reset me.
Speaker 2:And at this point my husband was sober, so like, okay, I've got this safe place now, like this isn't a thing anymore. And then he started to see the patterns of behavior in his mom, and so that felt safe. Because I was like, oh, finally, like someone else sees what I see, mom. And so that felt safe. Because I was like, oh, finally, like someone else sees what I see. So it was still a journey to get out of it. I don't think. I think honestly, if he had never done a journey and if he had never gotten sober, I would have had to have walked away A hundred percent. Believe that I don't think another journey would have saved me. Believe that I don't think another journey would have saved me. And if I had stayed, does that make sense? Yeah, okay. So you and I were talking and I'm going to bring this conversation up that you don't remember having, oh gosh, when we were painting this room um, and it was several months after your first journey.
Speaker 2:we were talking about it and you were coming to me with like, and this is happening? And I'm like, yeah, that's normal.
Speaker 1:I don't even remember what this is happening.
Speaker 2:I'm like yep, but I just remember talking to you and saying like everything you're going through is is so normal. You're going through exactly what I went through, but I need you to know that, like you have me to talk to because I've gone through it and that made all the difference. And I'm not saying like I made the biggest difference, but like no, but you did. I'm like motherfucker, I wish I had that. Whenever I came out of my dark hole, I started like looking on Instagram and there were people talking about dark night of the soul and I was like is that what I went through?
Speaker 2:There are spiritual coaches that help you get through that dark night of the soul, because I can absolutely see how, without the right information and support, you can get stuck in the muck and it becomes existential dread. And it's kind of like that meme with the guy on the bus and there's like two sides of the bus and one is like dark and weary and he's like what's the point, you know? And then on the other side there's another guy and he's looking out the window and it's like beautiful and sunset and grass and he's like what's the point?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know both of those things are true, but it's in the way that you look at it. Does that make sense? Absolutely, can you stop saying that? Okay, thank you. So do you feel like you relate to that Like I do?
Speaker 1:Okay, so, like I have a lot of empathy and compassion for you because you really didn't have anybody, whereas I had the support of you and I had the support of Tony. Um, but like before I I did this, I was somebody who was like very black and white in my thinking, very, very black and white. Like this person did something, so that means they're bad. And then this person, who other person who is in this situation, that means they're good. Um, like even Tony and I's first date, for example, and again I've been burned, I've, I've been divorced, like I've. Again I didn't grow up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I didn't grow up with a father Like I'm going to stress this, um, but I was he he's agnostic and I grew up Christian. I don't feel like I had that religious trauma that you had, but I was like if you're good, you are a Christian, if you're not, you are bad. Because just that conditioning you grew up like Catholic coded.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would say, that's what I would call you there wasn't pressure there wasn't.
Speaker 1:It never resonated with me. But I like was like it's just something that you just kind of have to do to be good. Like listen, any of the sermons I went to it was like in one ear out the fucking other. I took a nap Like I wasn't paying attention because it didn't resonate with me. Yeah, but it was something that I was conditioned to. Like this is how you have to be to be good. And um, our first date, like he told me that he was agnostic.
Speaker 2:He he, he's a serial killer.
Speaker 1:Well, like his mom grew up with a lot of religious trauma from her father and so his mother did not do that to them, so he's like I don't know what the truth is. I don't know what to believe, but what I do believe is like the religious people in my family they weren't great people and they use their religion to control and manipulate and I don't like that. I don't like that judgment and that just like rocked my fucking world Cause I was like so you're bad.
Speaker 2:Oh shit. So what you're saying is you're a baddie.
Speaker 1:But but right.
Speaker 2:But I.
Speaker 1:I like equated it. I was like, oh God, I don't know if I can do this because like he's agnostic, Like, and then like to think now I'm like bitch, you didn't believe it, Believe in it either Can.
Speaker 2:I ask you if your ex-husband was religious? No, okay.
Speaker 1:We it was. We weren't religious, but we tied ourselves to Christianity because that's what everyone else, that's what everybody does. Okay, so you were like well, he's a Christian, right, we're not going to go to church, we're not going to talk about religion. Right, we're not going to go to church, we're not going to talk about religion, we're not going to do anything, we're not going to embody anything. That like, whatever.
Speaker 2:But we grew up Christian, so we're Christian, right, but look what he did.
Speaker 1:Right, cheated, lied, all the things. Yeah, right, right, right, all the things Right. So then I, even on our first date, I was like brought up. It's like the two things you don't bring up on a first date.
Speaker 1:Politics and religion, politics and religion. And I brought it up and I was like, if you believe this way and I'm not going to share what way it is Right it's wrong, you're wrong. And I was so black and white with my way of thinking because I was like, if you believe this way, you're a bad person. I was like, if you believe this way, you're a bad person, you're a racist, you're this, you're that, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, damn. And he was the one who was like I really disagree with you. So he challenged your beliefs, he did, and he made me incredibly uncomfortable, like when we first started dating, because he was, he was kind and he spoiled me and he was reliable and he was loyal and he was sweet.
Speaker 1:And I was like, fuck this. It felt so uncomfortable, it felt very, even our first Christmas he gave me like he spoiled me on Christmas. I didn't know what to do with it because I've never I'd never had that, because I've never I'd never had that. But and I think, like you know, my mom had to be that way, but there was a lot of like rigidity in the way of thinking that maybe got definitely got passed on to me that I didn't realize that that's what it was. And so when I did this journey, my first journey, it turned my world upside down in that way.
Speaker 1:Okay, so like I would be like that person is bad, but then after the journey, I'm like, well, they went through a lot of trauma and there's this and there's that and there's this, and you know are like there's a lot of gray in life. There's not a lot of black and white, there's a lot of gray. And I was very like this is what I believe and I hold firm in that belief. And it took all of that and fucking Flipped it on its head. That and fucking flipped it on its head and so, like you know again, was diehard that I was a Christian. That went away was diehard. That I was like had this political stance that went away, like a lot of who I thought I was, and it was very black and white that went away, like everything I thought I knew I was like. You're wrong about that and you weren't necessarily wrong. You were conditioned in that way. It's not you.
Speaker 2:Can I also mention something else that I realized, like it probably happened also in that first year, cause we started the podcast only a few months after your first journey.
Speaker 2:Oh, it was like for me it was like two years after my first journey, so I had already kind of gone through this giant right, giant, dark, fucking night at the soul realizations. But with you, knowing you eight years ago, as I knew you, the story I got was um, my dad wasn't around. My mom's a saint, she's my hero. She raised this many kids, was a single mother and within that first year some things started shifting with that too, and it's hard because it's a delicate subject. But I will say, like the same thing has happened with my mom and my relationship with my mom it has absolutely shifted. But you were like wait a minute, there are multiple stories in this and it's not just that like my dad was bad and my mom was good, so that I remember when you were going through that was like a really big fucking deal. Yeah, because it fucked your whole, not identity up, but it kind of like fucked up your whole.
Speaker 1:Like this is the way I've always thought it was Right, like I idolized my mom and I hated my dad, and it took me a minute. It took me some time Cause I think you have to like go through this process where, after I did it, then I got really angry with my mom because I realized that, even though she was physically there and she was the physically present parent, there were still things that I didn't get, that I that I really, really needed from my childhood, that I didn't get from my mother and I didn't get from my father. It was both, and that's okay. And again, I cannot stress this enough she did the best that she could with what she had, the knowledge that she knew Like again, we've learned so much more about mental health and healing and how to talk to our children and our parents didn't learn those tools. I get that Right, but those wounds were still there, and so I had to go through a little bit of a process where I felt really angry at her.
Speaker 2:I'm going to go through some of that in a minute. Okay, I think you probably came into this process thinking, oh, I've definitely got some father wounds.
Speaker 1:Oh, I knew that.
Speaker 2:And I wore it as a badge of honor and you probably didn't realize there were mother wounds too. Yeah, and that's kind of where I'm like there were mother wounds too. Yeah, and that's kind of where I'm like doing this shit will like wake you up spiritually, emotionally, all of the things.
Speaker 1:Here's the other thing. Because of the fact that she was a single mother and because of the fact not only did I not have a father, I didn't have any safe adult, especially in men she was very hard and so I grew up carrying that hardness and toughness, carrying that hardness and toughness and like I had to, there was, and again she knew what she knew. But I had to go through a little bit of that like anger and resentment towards her that I was hard to.
Speaker 2:And wasn't it you who told me like single mothers have to be in their masculine?
Speaker 1:Yeah, they don't have a choice.
Speaker 2:They don't have a choice.
Speaker 1:Because, I mean, think about it, they have to be the mom, they have to be the dad, they have to be the nurturer, but they also have to be the protector and the provider, like I have so much empathy for any single mom out there being raised by a single mom, and it wasn't just she was a single mom, she was a single mom. She didn't have any support from parents, from like aunts and uncles, family members, nothing with six children working as a social worker. She worked, busted her ass, like she was always working like three jobs, so it's like she had to right she couldn't like, and so I understand that now she couldn't. Um, she couldn't show up for me in certain ways because she was just trying to survive and keep food on the table and a roof over our head and clothes on our body. Like I know that, but I had to go through those emotions from her too, that I, even though she had to go through that, I was still a child that didn't get what they needed from their mother.
Speaker 2:And it also doesn't mean that she was a bad mother.
Speaker 1:She was a very good mother and she did the best that she could. I cannot stress this enough.
Speaker 2:That's where that though, is where if you and this is where it was with with, like my mother-in-law, like we couldn't bring anything to her that was negative, like, or she would immediately go into the defense, like I'm not a bad person, I'm not a bad person, I'm not a bad person. We're like no one is saying that yeah, we're just saying this behavior is harmful, and I also was so like anytime, maybe I started to share how I was feeling about my childhood.
Speaker 1:People would be like you should be so grateful because your mom brought you here, Like she gave you this life. She's worked so hard and it's yes.
Speaker 2:That's also true.
Speaker 1:That is true, but also, yes, I was a child who didn't get their needs met.
Speaker 2:I don't think people realize how much I'm so sorry You're on cry number two today.
Speaker 1:Oh my God, yeah, no. So I felt very um, gaslight, gaslit to not have those feelings. Yeah, because it was like you should be. It's. I guess the best example I could give is like when a child gets adopted and they have feelings of grief because they don't have a relationship with their birth parents. You know, their birth parents placed them for adoption, whatever it is. It's a very complex situation and I don't care what anybody says. It's trauma, no matter how amazing those adoptive parents are. But when people say to children and they're like but you should be so lucky that you were adopted.
Speaker 2:And I'm like like let's bypass all those other feelings, yeah, and I'm like fuck you.
Speaker 1:Because you know, like for Kai, for example, like I have an understanding that like that is trauma for him, and there is one there, like one day it will probably come up, and what am I supposed to do? You should just be so grateful that I, that I, you know, you're with our family and blah, blah, blah.
Speaker 2:It's like, no like fuck off with that thinking. I think we acknowledge the grief and the sadness and that whole process that comes with that Right, because that in itself is a process that some people get stuck in, sometimes to the grieving process. So so yeah, that's interesting, like the rigidity and like I think the world would be. There's like an epidemic of of millennials going non-no contact with their parents oh yeah, that waking up because there's language around behaviors.
Speaker 2:Now that's why I love a fucking label, because I didn't know what gaslighting was until I saw the word and the definition and I was like, oh my God, that's what's been happening to me, or the silent treatment I didn't know that was a thing. So once I had a word attached to the behavior, I was able to articulate what was happening and recognize it when it was happening and call it out when it was happening. So it's like that's why I love a label. I love words, I love language, yeah.
Speaker 1:I didn't know that sibling abuse was a thing. I thought abuse had to come from a partner, a parent, like an adult figure. I didn't know that sibling abuse was even. See, it's a word If it's a word. If it's a word, it's real well. But then people started talking about it and I started seeing things and because, again, a lot of times people would be like I mean, yeah, you know how she is, or she's just a bully, or you know, and I'm like excused, or yeah, I'm like lost over it feels a little bit more than bullying.
Speaker 1:I don't know call me crazy, but like I actually feel, like I'm getting abused.
Speaker 2:It doesn't seem like typical sibling bickering.
Speaker 1:Yeah, this feels a little deeper than that. I don't know.
Speaker 2:Maybe I'm wrong, right, yeah, no. So I think, um the epidemic of, like millennials, cutting parents off or going no contact, I think is because they are trying to have these conversations with their parents and their parents are like. I think is because they are trying to have these conversations with their parents and their parents are like. I did the best I could. I was a single mother.
Speaker 2:I'm just giving this as an example, but like you know, your dad wasn't around and I had to do this and I had to do this, and it's like I know that, but all you have to say is like I'm really sorry that I wasn't there in that way. I did the best I could, but that rigidity keeps people from being able to acknowledge that both of those things can exist at the same time. No one's calling you a bad person because I told you I didn't have my needs met, right.
Speaker 1:Even like we've. We've shared this before, but I have I feel this guilt for like our beginning episodes because, again, like what you said earlier, when we first started recording, I was like a month or two out from my first journey ever, so a lot of stuff was coming up for me.
Speaker 2:Looking back, maybe we shouldn't have done that, but I also feel like it was a lot of like learning for you that otherwise wouldn't have happened.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. And I cringe at those earlier episodes because I was still very much in it and very like, had anger, a lot of anger, and like stuff. Everything was coming to the surface, yeah, but it was my truth at that time and what I was truly experiencing at that time. I'm in a much different place. I feel like I'm much more detached to it because I don't need those things from those people anymore and it's okay and it's not like a place of like I don't need that from you anymore. I'm like it's not a place of bitterness, it's like a place of acceptance and and I can give those things to myself. So I don't need you to show up in that way for me anymore. I did at that time.
Speaker 2:Can we also talk about maybe the fact that, like you, did have friends that you thought would be supportive and literally stopped talking to you because you were micro dosing? Yeah, so, and that is probably that flipped me on my head Someone you thought, wanted the best for you always.
Speaker 1:That's somebody who used to be the godmother of my child right, somebody you never in a million years would think would like turn on you when you started to heal yeah, and it's crazy because there were a few situations so this person literally, like I thought was like my biggest ride or die ride or die like was so supportive of like everything I was doing, you know, with the gym, with my son, like all of that, so that flipped me on it on my head.
Speaker 1:But when, um, I shared with her and this was over text that I had done a journey, she was very weird about it. And this is like another thing that's interesting and and like earlier we were talking about like pleasure and how, like, if you're just sharing your experience, it makes other, it can make other people feel uncomfortable. Yeah, and that's how I felt with a lot of friendships, and that's how I felt with a lot of friendships in this part of my life where I just shared what I did, and it was like, oh my God, I could never and I'm like I'm not telling you to, I'm just I'm just telling you what I did.
Speaker 1:I'm just telling you what I did. I'm not I'm not like a salesman for this. Now do I believe in it and I, and I love it. I don't think it's for this. Now do I believe in it and I, and I love it. I don't think it's for everyone, but, like I'm just sharing my experience because I love you and we have this friendship and I want you to know what I've done.
Speaker 1:That's made me feel good and I like made me find myself and, um, it was a very weird interaction and we didn't talk for a while and then she reached out to me and she was like, she said something like you know, I just don't know if I can like hang out with you, if you're just like microdosing and doing drugs all over the place and I'm like thinking in my head okay, you did one mushroom journey and I was alone with Leah on a couch. I went, wore an eye mask and I went into my own subconscious for an hour. So I'm not understanding why people are triggered or are mad about this. And then I also had a friend who, when we released my story or whatever, she reached out to me and she was like oh my God, I didn't know all of that and I'm like well, I didn't know it either at the time. I was just I was so deep in the trenches I didn't even know how to vocalize that to other people. And she's like thank you so much for sharing your story.
Speaker 1:Well, turns out, she was not happy for me, that was. I don't know what that conversation was, but like she was not happy for me. That was. I don't know what that conversation was, but like she was hating on me behind my back and like, I think, making fun of me and and and um, I think the worst part of it is is, uh, a lot of people that I grew up with knew, you know, the struggles I had with like racism, being a single, you know, growing up in a with a single parent, like not having a dad, like having an abusive sibling, having an eating disorder. But then when I talked about it on the podcast, they really dismissed my trauma and were very like she was, was popular, like what would she have to complain about and kind of like that, and like kind of talking about me to each other and like yeah, and diminishing my experience essentially.
Speaker 1:um, and I ended up finding out, but what was interesting is I never said anything. I didn't say anything for a year, year and a half, and I don't know what happened, but I think that person started to put together that I knew what they were saying. Ah, because I was like this isn't worth a conversation because they're not going to tell me the truth. Yeah, and.
Speaker 2:I see it's worth it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I see you like, I see you like, you know, and it's like and if there's not, there's not a fight, there's not hate, there's not whatever, just removing myself and I literally didn't even talk to anybody else about it besides you, um, on purpose, and but yeah, I ended up finding out, and so then that person reached out to me and wanted to be friends again. But what they said when we had this conversation I'm like listen, I'm not like trying to talk, and that's the other thing. Like I'm not trying to talk anybody into this. Like I don't understand why people are just triggered because I'm just saying that I use this medicine.
Speaker 2:This was my experience.
Speaker 1:I don't like I'm not trying to push you or like you don't have to believe in it, but like I experienced this for real. I'm not making this shit up, right, and so I just want to share and it be a safe space. But they listened to the episodes and they said something like in this conversation um, like oh gosh, uh, oh yeah, I don't, I don't listen to your stuff because it just it's just not my thing. But then a little bit later, in that same conversation, they were saying that they listened to the episodes to hear if I would talk about them. Talk about them, shut up.
Speaker 2:And I'm like, so you're listening to see if I'm talking about you.
Speaker 1:But what's interesting is for that year time I distanced myself and they knew that and they continued to do that and talk about me. So I just shared and again me sharing my experiences with losing friends or where I've changed or grown. It's not to talk shit, it's to just authentically share how hard this stuff is and what it can really do to your life and how it can literally. I mean the whole point of this episode is how it can literally flip your world upside down, and friendship is a part of that. But they listen to, not hear me, they listen to see what I would say about them and I did share my experience, but I'm not calling out anybody specifically. I'm just saying I've lost friendships because I felt like people didn't see me and see where I was at and and so I just kind of like didn't make a big deal, Didn't tell anybody, but just slowly backed away because, like I want to be in places where I feel seen and where I feel safe.
Speaker 2:I feel like that was just a sermon I didn't forget. But there's a friendship that I lost. That was probably the hardest, like a life, almost lifelong friendship. Oh shit, you haven't talked about that. No, I haven't, because it's really hard to talk about, but it wasn't. It was like nothing happened and I couldn't really explain, except for there was like I could feel myself not sharing things because I felt judged when I did so. I would keep things to myself and every time I would share something I would be met with like pushback or like what was.
Speaker 2:I think the hardest part for me was an episode with my husband came out talking about his sobriety and what's wild is like that episode came out and like we had strangers messaging him and people that we've known for years reaching out and saying like, oh my God, I had no idea he was sober. Like so proud of him, Congratulations. Like so proud of him, congratulations. And this person, who was like my best friend, called me and said I just listened to Jason's episode and I was like, oh yeah, what, what'd you think? And she was like I'm not buying it, I wouldn't sit in a room with him if you paid me too. And it was like I found myself defending him because I was like but he's not like that anymore. Yeah, I don't buy it Like. Like, but he's not like that anymore. Yeah, I don't buy it Like, well, you haven't been around him. Like you haven't been around him since he got sober, like he's not the same person anymore. And so that's when I kind of started pulling away, like little things, like he started going to law school and I didn't share that. And when I mentioned something about him taking the LSAT, she's like I didn't know he was going to law school and I was like oh yeah, he's going to law school. Why would he do that? He's like 40 something. Why would he start up?
Speaker 2:Like everything was met with pushback and so I was like well, this is why I didn't tell you, because I knew that if I brought it up you wouldn't understand it. So I just I started to like really feel like I had to censor myself. I had to not share things that were happening in my life because they weren't met with curiosity at all. They were met with a lot of. I could feel the judgment. Yeah, like I could feel it Right, right, right, and in her tone and the way that she responded to things. So it really made me pull back and say I don't know if I can do it. I want someone who's happy for me when I'm happy, not someone who is I don't even know the word, but like triggered that I'm happy for the first time ever. You know like it. It was just. It was a really difficult loss.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And we don't talk about that enough. I don't think we talk about the bad things enough, because we also, like, want to share the good side of all of it.
Speaker 1:And here's the thing, too, with the hard part about losing friendships. Yeah, I think about those people almost every day.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But I don't want to go back to that place. I'm in a much better place. But because it's like you shared like childhood memories or you know, like they were with you through like a lot of like pivotal times, when you're like growing up and becoming a young adult, like you know funny memories, stories, so you really miss that and that connection that you did have. But it's like you've out, you've evolved into more and you need more, and so that relationship dynamic has just changed and it's okay. There doesn't always have to be like this fallout draw out something doesn't have to happen or anything, but it is, it's, it's okay. There doesn't always have to be like this fallout draw something doesn't have to happen, or anything, but it is.
Speaker 1:it's it's like like, oh my gosh, like you were really important for like this chunk of my life and I I really appreciate you and I love you. Because I had that with you. We've outgrown each other and we, you know, I've gone this way and you've gone this way and that's okay. But like I still think about it frequently because I still have like hold a lot of love for them, but it just has to be from a distance.
Speaker 2:Well, there's this like thing where it's like I, I feel like I can't be my full self around you and I wish there was a way that you could meet me where I am. Yeah, but instead of meeting me where I am, I have to make myself smaller for you. Yeah, and I don't like doing that for people. Yeah, like I don't like not having the conversations that I have, with the deep conversations that I have. I don't like to wallow in self-pity. I don't like to only talk about the negative things in my life. I like to hear the positive things. I like to talk about my positive things without feeling like I can't talk about this in front of this person because they're really struggling right now. You know it's hard, because that's exactly what it is. It's like I have so much love for the people that I have lost, but there is a big part of me that wishes you could just meet me. Meet me where I am, instead of wanting me to go back to where I was. I don't want to go back to that, yeah.
Speaker 1:I noticed I started to really struggle with like friendships, where it was like all the connecting, like conversations were about like what we did in our past, because we had nothing in common present day.
Speaker 2:I was just going to say there's like a thing, there's like a whole thing with that. Like you can tell when men don't evolve because all of their conversations revolve around and I'm saying men, but I feel like it's with women too. Oh, it's women, like when they're like sitting around the campfire talking about their good old heydays in college. It's like, why aren't you talking about life right now? Right right, what do you have in common right now? I know you have all these memories and all these fun times together, but, like, what are you going through in your marriage right now? How are your kids doing?
Speaker 1:Like I don't want to talk about the past anymore and it's okay, Like sometimes, but I'm like. I want you to know where I am now.
Speaker 2:That's, and I want to know where you are now, like truly like on a deep level.
Speaker 2:And also, are you in the same place? You've always been. Yeah, because that's hard too, because I remember watching this reel one time that was like this is how you know when it's time to let somebody go, um, and it's when you want more for them than they want for themselves. Because that's it's really hard to love someone on such a deep level that you want nothing but the best for them. But they are stuck in the muck, and not only stuck in the muck, they don't want to do anything about it. And you're throwing lifeline after lifeline after lifeline, and everyone else is too. Everyone else is too, but they are just this energy sucking life force that is becoming increasingly hard to be around. I think since my journey, I am increasingly more aware of the energy that people put out and the energy that takes out of me. I don't know, would you agree with that?
Speaker 2:Like, I feel like okay, we don't have much time, but I want to say to Altered Roads and to anyone else who was going through this dark night of the soul, because it can absolutely be soul crushing and feel like there's no end and I think one of the things that she said to me when she was opening up is like why did I wait till I was 46 to do all of this? I went through that same thing. I went through that same guilt trip of why didn't I do all of this sooner? Look at all the things that I have done in my life, look at all the things I've ruined because I was this way. But I will say keep going, because there is an end to it. And she said something. I did respond to this. She said something like if this is what the other side is, and I was like oh, no, no, no, no, no, no. You're not there yet.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, there's a light at the end of the tunnel.
Speaker 2:You're not on the other side yet, like when we talk about see you on the other side, like you've got to get through this muck first and then you're going to get to the other side. And then I truly believe that first awakening is the hardest. There are things that will come up that will rock you to your core after, but they're a little bit easier to handle because you've already gone through this like great, big dark night of the soul.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, cause it's like the first time things are coming up that you've never even fucking touched Right, you never even thought about.
Speaker 2:Right, you're like I didn't even know that was a thing.
Speaker 1:You're like what the fuck? Right when now I'm like, or like something that's always triggered you and you're like it's a trigger for me.
Speaker 2:And then it triggers you after you do a journey and you're like, oh my god, I just had a flashback of when I was five and this happened and, oh my god, that's why that's such a trigger for me. Holy shit, like putting those little pieces together and you've said this before it's like a puzzle, like every few months you get a new little download. That's the thing too. People think that like the journey is is the mushroom journey, but it's like no boo-boo, it's the year that comes after, because you'll have, like just a random thought or a download out of nowhere or this like puzzle piece of a of information that you didn't even know was there, and it creates this puzzle.
Speaker 2:And here's what I think it is the puzzle looks like something completely different than what you thought it would. Yeah, it's not the puzzle you've been working on your whole life. This puzzle is like well, no wonder this puzzle wasn't working, because I was using all the wrong pieces and I was trying to paint this picture, but this is the picture that the puzzle supposed to be. So every journey after that and I am not saying they're easy, because they're never fucking easy. But this one feels like the big awakening. That's why I think it's like called the dark night of the soul. Everything after that is still difficult, but you're like more prepared, I think, and you're like all right, this is going to be really hard but I'm ready, well, and I think, I think you know, like you kind of know the steps, like you know that you're, you, the steps.
Speaker 2:Like you know that you're you may have a hard time, but you know you're going to get through it. So that's exactly like. You know you're not going to stay in the muck this time. Right, I was in the muck for a little bit.
Speaker 1:And you kind of know what you need to do to, like, get through that muck Right and you know there's another side and you're stronger. Yeah, you have more tools.
Speaker 2:You have more tools. You have more language around things that are happening around you. Hopefully you have more awareness. Hopefully you have more of your people. That, too, that happens too. Like the people who we've lost, has only made room for different connections.
Speaker 1:Oh, and that's. That's one thing I want to say. Oh, and that's one thing I want to say Losing people is really really hard, right.
Speaker 2:The hardest and again.
Speaker 1:I am telling the truth when I think about those people often and I have a lot of love for those memories because they helped shape me to be who I am and where I'm at now. But those doors closed so other doors could open up, and so like being in this space and continuing to put myself out there in this way and share my truth, even if I've been met with like what the fuck is wrong with you, you're on drugs, what you know, whatever shit Right, but like those people left. So then people who are like holy shit, that's really cool, tell me more. Tell me more about it. That's really really interesting. I'm on this journey too. Like I love the way you show up. Yeah, the people who see you.
Speaker 2:We'll see you then, and it might not happen right away.
Speaker 1:No, it might take years to build which we have talked about this continuously happen right away. No, it might take years to build which we have talked about this continuously. And we are, you know, trying to like put our brains together and work on it, about like helping people who live all over be able to find support and connection. So find your people.
Speaker 2:To find your people, because we know how hard that is, and we know that that's something that's very needed. Yes, I think it's easier for us because we have a platform where we openly share and talk about it. I think it's much harder for people who don't have platforms where they can share to find like-minded people. 100%, we're just the ones out here bearing it all.
Speaker 1:We're just the fucking three fives, you guys. We're just sharing our three fives. You guys, we're the three fives Sharing our truth.
Speaker 2:It's part of our design Our trauma, the good, bad, the ugly. So just really quick. I know that the dark night of the soul can be challenging, but here are things that can help you. Seek support, connect with trusted friends, family or a spiritual advisor who can provide comfort, guidance and understanding. Now we do one-on-one calls and we have also gone through this process, and those one-on-one calls are not just for microdosing or psychedelics. If you are going through something like this and do not have the support of someone who has also gone through it, we would love to support you.
Speaker 2:We can help you Like we can call you. Sometimes all you need is to hear that somebody else has gone through it and they understand.
Speaker 1:Do you know how many times, like we've done calls, where I've had a call and they're they've felt like no hope, like their, their mom, mom's. This, their mother-in-law is that, you know? Whatever, all all the same shit that we've been through, yeah, friends, family, all the same it I'm losing friends right and just maybe having someone to talk to a safe space and also maybe somebody who is like, has been through it, been doing it for a while to share, like their perspective.
Speaker 2:And like this, isn't this?
Speaker 1:isn't where you are now and this isn't the end for you this is. This is kind of just the beginning, I love that it's a rough start Right. It is a rough start, but like, like, sometimes that's all you need to hear.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, is that you're not alone?
Speaker 1:Right, it makes you feel a lot less alone. Yeah, you want to be witnessed. People want to be witnessed, Maintain spiritual practices.
Speaker 2:So this one is hard because if you're new to spirituality it can feel very off-putting. For me it did, because I had so much religious trauma so anything that was a spiritual practice to me felt ick.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It took me a while to be able to build those practices and trust them. It it took me a while to be able to build those practices and trust them. It felt cheesy at first. It totally did Self-compassion. Be gentle and compassionate with yourself. Recognize that this is a difficult period and allow yourself to feel and process your emotions without judgment. Journaling could help Read spiritual texts. So this is like read some books, look up some like you know, mystics or theologians Thank you for that, oh, wow, thank you or spiritual figures who have experienced similar journeys. Their insight can often offer perspective and hope, mindfulness and grounding, professional help, patience and trust. Trust that this period, while it's difficult, is temporary and a part of a larger process. Have patience with yourself and the journey. Also, forgive yourself for not doing it sooner. You were doing it exactly when you need to be doing it. I used to think that, and then I was like you know what? I don't think I would have been able able to handle this. Yeah, at 26.
Speaker 1:And also forgive yourself for the mistakes that you made at 26, because we were all in survival mode doing the best we could, and so like yes, there may have been things you would have done differently, but it's like you don't know what you don't know. Exactly so it's like learning to even love those that shadow part of you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, physical care. Ensure that you're taking care of your physical health, proper nutrition. Creative expression is one that we talked about with meg today in that episode I think we'll, when this one comes out, will be the episode from last week yeah, um, engage in creative activities like art, music or writing to express your emotions in a non-verbal way. And I also think there needs to be a little bit of grace and compassion for the grieving process. You can absolutely grieve and there's five steps to grieving. And the first is denial, then there's anger, then there's bargaining, where it's like what if, or if only, or if only I had done this sooner. Why didn't I do this sooner? That's like the bargain why didn't I see this before? Why was I so?
Speaker 2:I dealt a lot with that with my husband and the abuse that I had been going through. Like I was so stupid. How naive was I that I like sat in this and didn't realize it was this toxic Like. So, yes, there's that part of the grieving process. And then depression that is also part of the process. There's nothing wrong with you If you fall into another state of state of depression. It's part of the process. Just know that you're going to come out of it and you have the tools to come out of it.
Speaker 2:And then acceptance is the final stage, and I think that that's where maybe she needs to hear. This is that like there's nothing you can do to go back in time at this point to wish you had done this sooner. So just accept that what you're seeing and everything that is happening is happening for you, not to you, and accept that this is part of the process. That's good. So that's all I got, and chef's kiss. Seriously, give us a call if you guys are experiencing anything like this, if you need someone to talk to, and you will make it to the other side. It's just a really hard journey at first.
Speaker 1:We wouldn't have been able to have a podcast in those first moments. Yeah, again you guys. I wouldn't have been able to do it. I was on the podcast right after I did my journey.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You all have seen all the muck and it's yes, it's, you're worth it, I promise.
Speaker 2:Yes, keep going. Um, all right, stay open, be curious and we will see you on the other side. Bye, Bye, okay.
