See You On The Other Side
Meet Leah and Christine. Busy moms and entrepreneurs just trying to balance this crazy thing called life. But we don't do surface, and we're definitely not your typical momtrepreneurs...so let's go a little deeper. Empaths, traumatic childhoods, generational trauma, people pleasers, toxic relationship patterns, anxiety, depression, feeling stuck and desperately seeking peace and happiness. And then we fell into the world of magic mushrooms and psychedelics. The catalyst that helped us break out of our comfort zones and took us DEEP into our personal healing journeys. We'll take you behind the scenes as we learn more about the holistic side of healing and all the amazing people we plan on meeting along the way. Join us as we share the good, the bad, and the ugly side of healing. With and without psychedelics. We hope to see you on the other side! Note: We are not professionals and we do not advise the use of illegal substances. For more about psychedelic support or clinical trials in your area, visit https://psychedelic.support/
See You On The Other Side
86 | It's JUST Emotions (A Guide to Emotional Sobriety)
Ever felt like emotions are simply too much to handle? Imagine navigating a maze of feelings, from anger to guilt, and discovering they're all connected to deeper, often unspoken emotions. Join us as we share our own experiences and explore why expressing emotions, particularly crying, can be so challenging. We'll walk you through personal stories and societal norms that have shaped our emotional landscapes, all while advocating for a more accepting attitude towards our feelings, reminding you that emotions are just energy moving through the body.
We're diving into the complexity of emotions and the tools that can help unpack them, like the feelings wheel. Ever wondered why anger sometimes hides deeper emotions like shame or disappointment? We’ve been there, and we'll share our journey of learning to fully process and embody these feelings. We touch on the concept of emotional sobriety, discussing how sitting with one's emotions—without resorting to coping mechanisms—is a transformative yet continuous process. By reflecting on personal anecdotes, we emphasize the difference between merely understanding emotions intellectually and truly experiencing them.
Relationships play a crucial role in emotional regulation, and we’ll explore the concept of co-regulation with real-life examples. Ever felt calmer just by being around someone? We have, and we'll recount how a shared mushroom journey profoundly connected our nervous systems, highlighting the importance of emotional support. Wrapping up, we discuss the responsible use of psychedelics for therapeutic purposes, emphasizing safety and the right environment. Listen in as we share insights from our own journeys of self-discovery and healing, offering encouragement for anyone navigating their complex emotional world.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/emotional-sobriety/201107/what-is-emotional-sobriety
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okay, we gotta start, I know. Oh my god, everybody. Welcome back to an episode, another episode, an episode of see you on the other side. You usually do this. Why am I doing this? The conversation that we just had so so uncomfortable it was her. I'm like fidgeting over here in the corner, like squirming in my seat it was.
Speaker 2:Uh, I feel like it takes us a little bit to get warmed up, like we'll start recording and then we'll have like a random ass side conversation and I like that you said foreplay, because it was literally about that foreplay it was about foreplay, foreplay. We were talking about foreplay, foreplay. We were talking about foreplay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's. Yeah, leah's so uncomfortable, such an uncomfortable topic for me. Yeah, it's fine, I can talk about it, I can do uncomfortable things, I can do hard things and I can have hard conversations.
Speaker 2:Oh, my cheeks hurt.
Speaker 1:Same, so that's actually what I wanted to talk about today is uncomfortable things. In a nutshell is feelings and emotions.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1:What a feel like this can piggyback off of our last episode that we did together, the mental health episode. We could have gone into this, but it would have taken like another hour and a half. Um, but I remember sending you a Marco one day about emotions, and if you don't know what Marco is, let me tell you. We just got onto it and it's like amazing.
Speaker 1:It is the best we were. We were like they should invent an app where we can just leave each other video notes all the time and then we were like oh they do, oh they have one.
Speaker 1:Of course they do, idiots, duh. We've been sending video messages back and forth for like a year and didn't know that there was an easier way. So anyway, I'll leave her this. Marco and I'm like what is it about emotions that people try so hard to avoid having them or feeling them or seeing them, even like it's just emotions, and I say this all the time and I and I know that it's nuanced and I know that, like some people would be like well, but I get that, but like it's a feeling, it's an emotion, and sometimes they can provoke physical feelings, so I can understand how and why they feel so overwhelming. And I'm not saying I don't get overwhelmed by emotions myself, we do.
Speaker 2:We get overwhelmed sometimes by our own emotions.
Speaker 1:Emotions are hard. Yeah, that is like probably one of the hardest parts about the human experience.
Speaker 2:But we often equate hard and uncomfortable with bad, and they are not synonymous.
Speaker 1:So fucking true, so true. So I started saying something to my husband a couple of years ago and maybe I've mentioned this in a podcast, but every now and then, when we're having an uncomfortable conversation, literally I told you about finances, where it's just a monthly check in about our finances, and I'm just in tears and he's like what's wrong? And I'm like it's just emotions, and I say that a lot and I kind of want it on a T-shirt like it's just emotions, because it's not like I don't need you to stop talking, like you can keep going, you can keep talking to me, but like I just need you to know that like tears are going to be coming out of me because I am expressing and feeling emotions while we're having this conversation. I'm not stuffing them or avoiding them, so it's just energy moving through my body the way that it's meant to.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and have you ever talked to somebody who's like? I can't remember the last time I cried. Oh my God, so many people, oh my God, it's like multiple times a day for me. Yeah, it's all the time. Like a fucking commercial, I will cry.
Speaker 2:Well, and here's the thing too, like I see both ends of it, because I see why those people are that way, because oftentimes we grew up in an environment where it wasn't safe to feel emotions and feel certain things. Um, just the society we live in it's, it's not taught, it's uncomfortable, it is hard. Um, I was telling you earlier like, and then I also understand people like you and I where we are very big feelers and have very big emotions, and being able to feel those emotions around other people has often felt unsafe for us because that was not accepted. So I see why people don't do it and I see why people who you know do have those big feelings want to hide it as well, because of like it doesn't feel safe.
Speaker 1:a lot of the time it doesn't feel safe a lot of the time, this goes back to even being a child and being told to suck it up. Be a man, stop crying, that's nothing to cry about. Or you know, I was a kid who got spanked, so it was like if you don't stop crying, I'll give you something to cry about you know what I mean. Like. So I understand, like this runs deep, yeah, in a lot of people that conditioning, that crying is weakness yeah and you can't show weakness right and I.
Speaker 2:I got labeled. I never got, I didn't get spanked, but I got labeled as um, like dramatic and overly sensitive and like a cry baby I feel like that should be one of those memes.
Speaker 1:That's like if you were that kid who was overly sensitive, like how's therapy now?
Speaker 2:or something how's your healing journey now?
Speaker 1:I think that is a meme if you're the oldest daughter or the youngest daughter or a daughter or a son, if you're a human being and grew up as a child, right? How are you doing now?
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah so yeah.
Speaker 1:So I wanted to talk about emotions and what about them is so hard because there are some emotions that are harder to feel than others, obviously, and I think it is because we label them as good and bad. It's like happy is a great emotion, nobody hides that. Like, everybody loves happy, right, you can be happy in front of people and it's contagious, and laughing is contagious and joy is such a good feeling, but then you hear anger and it's bad.
Speaker 2:But I think anger, especially with men, is more accepted because it is powerful.
Speaker 1:It's powerful. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Like there's power with it. Yeah, where like crying and sadness and grief?
Speaker 1:So this drives me crazy, because women often get labeled as like super fucking emotional, but then the men are the ones like punching holes in walls and like throwing remote controls across the room for like literally losing a video game, right, and we're labeled as emotional and it's like no Joe you're just as emotional.
Speaker 1:Yours is just coming out in that one primary emotion. Like there's primary emotions, there's secondary emotions and this is something that, like my husband, had to learn. I think a lot of people are learning in the last several years. A lot of people probably already knew this stuff. But, like the feelings wheel, love it. I love it too, because what you're feeling is an anger, it's, it's something else. And so you go to the feelings wheel and we've done a post about it before but you go to the feelings wheel and it's like all these feelings underneath anger, which is like resentment, um, disappointment, disappointment, shame, guilt, like there's all these feelings under it. So I remember the first time I ever asked my husband, when he was like mad about something, like what's underneath that? And he's like what the fuck is that supposed to mean? And then we go to our psychiatrist and he's like and what do you think is under that anger? And jason's like what does that mean?
Speaker 2:I'm angry well and a lot of people don't really realize that like there's something underneath that anger.
Speaker 1:Well it's you kind of have to dig and ask the bigger questions, like but why are you angry? Right, you got to ask the why You're angry because you're feeling resentful, or you're angry because you're feeling shame and you don't like feeling that shame.
Speaker 2:And it triggered that shame, triggered a wound from when you were a little shame and you don't like feeling that shame. And it triggered that shame, triggered a wound from when you were a little kid and you felt shame in this situation and so this present. And someone told you not to feel that.
Speaker 1:And it's so Big. There's so many things about emotions and I, not to like take it back to your first journey, but I remember your first journey, how like you had to go through these emotional waves and each emotional wave was a different emotion. Can you elaborate on that if people aren't?
Speaker 2:don't know what I'm talking about. Yeah, so, um, my first journey there weren't like visuals, it was just emotions, and so it was like I would just feel the angriest I've ever felt. And then I would go back to my intention and like, which was to let it go, whatever, remember to breathe, all that but as it kept going, cause then it would be sadness and then it would be disappointment, and then it would be like frustration and abandonment and all of those things, but as I kept feeling them, like I was able to hold space for those emotions, like they got less uncomfortable. Yeah, and then so by the end of it, I'm like, oh my God, like I just like it's OK for me to feel, like I meant to feel, I'm supposed to feel, like so I've been suppressing the fact that I've been this feeler my entire life.
Speaker 2:And then I did this one journey and it was like no, feel it, feel it and then let it go. No, feel it and then let it go. No, feel it, truly feel it, and then let it go. Like that was the entire lesson. And I know that sounds simple, but it does, but it's. It's incredibly profound, because how often do we truly embody that in our lives?
Speaker 1:Sit with it and feel it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then I think you know too, it's like I need those. I, you know, I try to do a journey once a year because with just conditioning and life and all of those things, like things get, get, get piled on and then it's like it's this reset of like oh no, like you're here to be, you're here to feel, remember who you are, like all of that. So it's like I do need those reminders because life happens and conditioning still happens and so, like I have to continuously do the work to like not shame myself, to feel those things.
Speaker 1:I feel like it sounds simple, because you see, all these things, it's like you have to heal, feel to heal, and the only way through it is through, or the only way I posted that stuff before I did mushrooms and intellectually I understood that right we all understand what that means but there's a difference between, like intellectualizing it and embodying it, yes and truly feeling it in your body, and that's something that I'm still working on.
Speaker 1:We always are Right and we always will be Right. I think the really cool thing is being on a journey with someone, having friends who are in the same space, and you get to witness each other's growth in the same space and like, you get to witness each other's growth and you get like you can talk about it, but then the moment that they that other person embodies it, you're like you get it now, yeah, and then you see the other person get something that you figured out.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean. Like that's, that's a really cool thing to witness, but it's it's that understanding that like the only way through it. Like a lot of people they're like, but I did feel it like. Did you feel it, though? Like did you let it run its course, or did you like you felt angry and then you went and did something else to not feel angry anymore? Or did you reach for a drink so you could like put it away for a minute, or did you get wrapped up in like your work, so you could like, okay, well, I felt angry, and so now I'm going to go do this.
Speaker 1:I don't feel angry anymore, like, call me delusional or crazy, but like I will sit and I will feel it until it's done. Yeah, I didn't used to do that. Yeah, and if it takes me days, it takes me days. Yeah, I also know that. You know you do have to like, you still have to do things, you still have to live life, you still have to be a parent and be a human and have a job, and so, like I will do all of those things, but I don't run from them anymore, or numb, or avoid, and um, I guess that was going to bring me to my like. Next thing is have you ever heard the word emotional sobriety?
Speaker 2:Yes From you.
Speaker 1:For me. Okay, I went down a little rabbit hole again um emotional sobriety. I took notes, but I don't need them because it was a term coined by bill wilson who, as we know, started aa. Um, I feel like people think I'm obsessed with him and I'm not I love him leah.
Speaker 2:Do you think he's so hot? Leah Shut up.
Speaker 1:Oh my God, I just know a lot about him and the history of what he has done and what he's created.
Speaker 1:I'm a fan. I know he did some really fucked up shit and so that I'm not a fan of, but the concept and the things that he brought to the table like I love what he was doing brought to the table like I love what he was doing. So, emotional sobriety he wrote about it in one of his books is the ability to sit with your feelings and your emotions without running from them or using a substance to escape or numb. Ooh, that's not like the exact definition of it, but it's that. So he came up with this term because in AA and in sobriety, the first goal is to remove the alcohol or the substance or the drugs or whatever it is that you're trying to get sober from, and with that you have to go through these 12 steps.
Speaker 1:The second part of becoming sober is becoming emotionally sober, and they don't talk about that in AA. Like when I brought this up to my husband, I was like, do you know what emotional sobriety is? And he was like, no, I'm like it's interesting to me that it's not talked about in AA. Yeah, they don't teach this part of it. But the more I read into it and the more I looked into it, I was like oh, this is just a word for what we now know and call self-regulation.
Speaker 2:You know what that is? Yes, okay, all right. Well, so the other thing I was going to say is I feel like addicts of a substance get the brunt of, maybe judgment in that way. Yeah, where for me, like like you talked about when you were in the thick of it with Jason, and like at your low low, like you would shop or like people will feel angry or feel sad or feel whatever that's uncomfortable for them and they'll eat or their shop or they will get to work or like.
Speaker 2:So it's not just people who use, just addicts, yes, but I feel like they're the ones who get kind of the brunt of that type of judgment when it's like no, we all do it. Right, right, like we all have escapes.
Speaker 1:Yes, your phone. We all have coping skills, social media.
Speaker 2:You feel a certain way, so you just go and disassociate and look at your phone for hours.
Speaker 1:There are healthy coping and unhealthy coping skills. It's all very, very nuanced. I'm so afraid to speak on this because I don't want anybody coming after me being like you don't understand what it's nuanced. I'm like so afraid to speak on this because I'm like I don't want anybody coming after me being like you don't understand what it's like and I don't know why. I'm feeling like that right now because we talk about a lot of shit where I never give a fuck yeah.
Speaker 2:Um come, come at you in what way.
Speaker 1:Okay. So in I feel like the ability to sit with your emotions sober and I don't mean sober from alcohol or drugs, I literally mean like that, like being able to sit with them without running from something is very difficult to do, difficult to do, and so for me, I think sometimes people think that if they are on SSRIs or some type of antidepressant or a mood stabilizer, that they are still sober, and I'm like, but actually you're still numbing to a degree, you're still. That's why I feel this way, because there are a lot of people in AA or in groups like that. And again, this isn't just this conversation isn't about sobriety from alcohol or drugs. This is emotional sobriety. So it's it's different.
Speaker 1:But I'm going to AA because that's like my, what I know in my life and what I can relate to. There are a lot of people in AA who are still on antidepressants because they don't know how to sit with their feelings without the alcohol. The alcohol is something that they use to run from it and then they turn to something that numbs it. And I'm saying that because when my husband was first sober in that first year which, to anybody who's ever gone through this, that first year is the hardest for anybody in a sobriety journey and it's incredibly difficult on the spouse or the partner as well, and someone recommended that he go on medication because he was having a really hard time feeling his feelings.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And having a really hard time, and this is something that I can speak on, like a lot of addicts. Some of those feelings that they run from or numb is guilt and shame, and those are two and I hate saying bad feelings, but those are feelings that we have labeled as bad. They're horrible. They feel awful. When you feel guilty or when you feel shame, that feeling almost seems insurmountable. And there were several times where he would look at me and say things like I've done too much damage. You deserve better. Like just leave me. Like do yourself a favor and leave me, I deserve it. Like that's. I know what you're going through right now. I know you're feeling a lot of things, but you need to feel them.
Speaker 1:And so he sat on this prescription cause he did. He went to the doctor, got a prescription, sat on this prescription for a minute and I was like just don't. I was very much like I need you to feel these things. You need to feel them. The only way through it is to feel it. So I don't want you to numb them. And we sat and talked with our psychiatrist. I said please don't start taking them until we talk to Dr.
Speaker 1:Shealy and see what he says, and we made an appointment. Dr Shealy was like. I really think you will get through this much quicker if you feel them to their fullest extent.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You need to feel these things, no matter how uncomfortable. He needed to feel guilt, yeah, and he needed to feel shame yeah, and sorry, I'm not trying to go on like a side tangent about sobriety, but that's kind of why I was like this is, this is a topic that I like want to tread lightly with, because I don't want to feel like I'm. I don't want it to come across as I'm like judging people if you're on medications, but I just want you to hear this and know what this is saying.
Speaker 2:Well, and I want to add to that because, um, we have a lot of people who come to us and they're asking, they're they're wanting to do a heroic journey and they come to us for help and to ask questions and all of that.
Speaker 2:But there have been a lot of people who they are on an SSRI or a benzo and they want to go from the SSRI straight to mushroom journey Because they're thinking that it's going to do it.
Speaker 2:It's almost like they took the, they took the SSRI and then they've been taking it for so long and they feel like it doesn't work anymore and then so they want to do another modality and just go right to it.
Speaker 2:The problem with that is they're very different medicines who have, you know, again, ssris kind of numb those feelings where, if you do a mushroom journey, it brings feelings to the surface and it can bring uncomfortable feelings like the guilt, shame, anger, all the stuff that you've been trying to avoid, all of the stuff that you've been numbing and trying to maybe avoid, or kind of push down. It's going to bring it up. And so, like we always like to warn people like these work in very, very different ways and if you're not ready for the mushrooms in that way, then it might not be the right time, or you may need to work with a therapist and work on like slowly learning to feel your feelings, because it can, you can do this, and it may feel like it's too much because you're not used to to feeling the things that you need to feel.
Speaker 1:I really like what you just said, like work with someone on working, like slowly working on how to feel your feelings. Yeah, yeah, that, I think, is what we were never taught, Never never, never.
Speaker 2:And sometimes I also don't think that talk therapy is necessarily the mode it can be, but it might not be the modality to best help you with that, to which I say somatic therapy. Somatic therapy can be something to look into and could be very beneficial, because it is. It's like you are learning to sit with that feeling and like where do you feel it, what does it feel like, and get curious about it, because it's there for a reason.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And you know, suppressing it, it's going to come out. It may not come out in the same way. It may come out and when you're arguing with your partner, you're talking to your kids, or you know, some present moment triggers an old wound, you know, um. So I highly, highly encourage somatic therapy.
Speaker 1:That's a good one If it's something that, like you, genuinely want to work on, if it's something that, like you, genuinely want to work on and it seems, it seems easy talking about it now, but I feel like I remember having to have conversations with my husband about like he's like what do you mean feel your feelings? And it seems like what do you mean? What do you mean Like, how do you not know how to feel your feelings? I don't think I realized how many people don't know how to do that. Yeah, Because I didn't fully know how to do it.
Speaker 1:Um, in the last episode we did, you talked, you brought up how when I was on medication, when I was on SSRIs, like I was kind of numb to the things that he did. Yeah, and very, we could go into that if we wanted to. About and talk about summer house and the situation that's happening and the person who is numbed out. Because I don't know if you should. We little bit, little bit why not? Christina's got me on to bravo. I'm sorry my husband is so mad at me. Okay, Let me just let everyone know.
Speaker 2:I have, like my mom was a single mom, so a lot of times she wasn't home. So you know when I was watching the real world Okay, when I was like, but you know why? Because I like watching. And now it's gotten to the point where I've like cut back on it so much because I'm like a lot of these things have gotten really ridiculous. But I just like watching people and do what they do, just whatever how they interact with others, how they respond to conflict, like I like the psychology of like people just being together and you just the different dynamics.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I didn't start getting into this stuff until last year. It's okay, like you gave me a list and I've, I'm going down the list and I can say I can definitely say I'm. The psychology behind these shows is very, very interesting. And some people are like, oh my God, like I can't believe you watch that trash TV, like that's what my husband says anyway, like this is so trashy, it's so dramatic, like this has to be affecting you negatively and I'm like maybe pre healed Leah, like it probably would have affected me negatively. But like where I am now, it's interesting watching it because I'm watching these things happen and I can tell who's evolving and who isn't. And I'm, I'm it's in Summer House. I'm only on season six right now, but I am watching my marriage on TV. On TV, yeah, and it is hard.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Because this person is an alcoholic and no one's saying it. And and we, no one talks about it.
Speaker 2:We've talked about this, so who we're talking about. If you don't, if you watch the show. His name is Kyle cook and he's the one who started the show summer house. Um, they go to the Hamptons. They live in new york city, but they go to the hamptons every week, every weekend. Um, he's in his 40s, um, his wife is like maybe a decade younger.
Speaker 2:Um, I think they're nine years apart yeah, she, he, he has cheated on her, he gets blackout, drunk and cheats on her yep, he gets blackout drunk and he's in his 40s and you watch him from season one and I think now we're just it. Just, they just wrapped up season eight. He has not evolved at all. It's hard, but he never gets flack for it, because he's the fun drunk and but and she's the crazy one, right, but he's the fun drunk for and she's the crazy one, right, but he's the fun drunk for everyone else, not for her, not for his wife, and so for his wife he's not fun because he's staying out till four o'clock in the morning. He's blacked out.
Speaker 2:He's blacking out, not answering his phone, not answering his phone, cheating on her with other girls. He gaslights the shit out of her Like he tells her she's boring, she's no fun. Yeah, they have, and this is I'm like you're an idiot, but they have an alcohol company.
Speaker 1:They literally own a company. Yeah, they like an alcohol, yeah yeah.
Speaker 2:So they own a company, loverboy, and so he has to go out promoting their products on the show. They drink, lover boy, night and day, like all the time. And so I'm like at what point is this gonna start turning? It already is, and we're watching it turn into a problem, but at what point is he gonna acknowledge that this is a problem and he's probably gonna to lose his wife at some point? Oh, I hope so. Well, and then just the other week there were videos that came out of him where he's at a bar in Charleston and it looks suspicious he's with another woman. They're not doing it, he's like rubbing her back or something, but it looks like little compromising, that you could be cheating, there could be a case for it and it's just like.
Speaker 2:You know, again, you, I always have this belief. So one I don't like talking to any of my neighbors. Tony used to always hang out with his neighbors and they used to like all drink and hang out all the time. They used to like all drink and hang out all the time. My personal opinion when you get a group of adults who are our parents, who are maybe not working on their marriages, are unhappy individually, and then you all party together and get fucked up to escape your problems. And get fucked up to escape your problems. Bad shit is bound to happen, it's inevitable, it's just a matter of time. And so you're watching these shows and you're like you're watching this train wreck, and it is. It's fucked up to watch. But I think sometimes you see yourself, especially your wounded self, in a lot of these people, and how they respond to their partner, how they respond to conflict, how, um, they take care of themselves.
Speaker 1:It's pretty pretty wild to watch. It's, it's incredible to watch. So I'm still two seasons behind, but, like, I will watch some, watch a few episodes and then, like, message you and be like I don't know what's going on now, but this is what I'm seeing and this is how I feel. So I was messaging you about Amanda and the way that her husband talks to her after he's been out drinking. It's not a big deal. Everybody was out, literally like watching my fucking marriage pre-sober husband where I would just get gaslit into. I'm not allowed to be angry because everybody gets drunk and nothing happened. Chill, the fuck out. Like I came home, didn't I like? And the emotional turmoil that she goes through when he's not picking up his phone, like, and then gets labeled as crazy, right, right For calling him 27 times in a row. Right, if they had kids, like we had kids and he wouldn't come home and I would be freaking the fuck out. Yeah, Once I went on medication, I stopped caring. Right, like, it was just like. Well, he'll come home whenever, it's fine.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:If he doesn't, he doesn't. And I said to you, if she's not on medication yet, she will be, which and I didn't know.
Speaker 2:Spoiler alert I did tell Leah I was like well, she just announced on this most recent reunion she is on antidepressants Because depression runs in her family.
Speaker 1:Yes, and when she said that I was like oh girl it doesn't though We've said this before but like no, it doesn't. Like it's not a chemical imbalance, it doesn't run in your family, like what I think does happen is you are not taught these things, like you don't know, you're not standing up for yourself. And she does. She tries, but she gets shut down. So it's like it's just incredibly hard to watch, because I used to be that person who thought I had a voice and then I was overpowered and overshadowed and I became the shell of myself.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And that's what I see in her.
Speaker 2:And it's you know, I and he's so likable by everybody else.
Speaker 1:It's so infuriating.
Speaker 2:But the thing is is people still think like depression is a chemical imbalance and it runs in your family. And to that I argue okay, let's say your mom was depressed, okay. And to that I argue OK, let's say your mom was depressed, ok. Now imagine being raised by a mother who has severe depression and what that may be like for a child, and that's all that they know. But the patterns that she has, the behaviors that she has, the way that she deals with conflict, the way that she deals with herself, like the self-worth. You are learning that. So it's not necessarily like she has it so you automatically have it right, it's that, that is your environment and that's what you're being taught.
Speaker 1:Those are the coping skills that you're looking and learning from Right, like you're learning how to behave Right Through that Right Childhood.
Speaker 2:And also you're probably being raised by a mom who didn't have the tools and wasn't equipped and so didn't know how to handle or deal with something like depression and and so you are like we have tools now, yeah. So I don't really know where I was going with that, but it was just an interesting concept.
Speaker 1:I remember taking a class um several years ago and it was about psychedelics and SSRIs, um, and antidepressants, and it was giving a visual of like why they say like you shouldn't be on SSR, SSRIs when you're doing psychedelic therapy and why they try to really encourage like people weaning off. But this visual has always, always, always, stuck with me. So when you are comparing an antidepressant or an SSRI or SNRI um to psychedelics and the way that they work as medications, as tools, um, as tools, this visual and I hope this sticks with other people too was it's raining and this person is out in the rain on SSRIs, unbothered, Like it's raining, but like it is what it is the person who was on the psychedelics, it was raining and they pulled out an umbrella and that, to me, is the difference.
Speaker 1:Like interesting, you can sit in the rain and be unbothered by it, or you can troubleshoot and figure out a way that you don't have to get wet. And that's kind of where I felt that I was like, oh my God, I was so unbothered and then it would get to a point where I never had to up my dose. I weaned off after the first round of dose. But I know several people who go up and up and up in their doses because they start to feel things again. Yeah, because your body builds a tolerance to it.
Speaker 2:There's someone I know who she was like. She's younger than me and she's at the highest dose that you can get and she's still struggling. You know who I'm talking about.
Speaker 1:I do know who you're talking about. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And it's hard to watch. It's so hard to watch because she's grasping at everything.
Speaker 2:And I see the shame that she feels for still struggling with depression and I've tried to be like, hey, you should listen to our podcast. I know, I know Check us out. But. But if you're listen to our podcast, I know you should check us out. But if you're not ready to see it, but it is it's hard to watch someone you know and love struggle with their feelings when you're like, oh no, baby, I want you to feel them and it's going to be probably really hard and really uncomfortable for a little bit, and it's going to be probably really hard and really uncomfortable for a little bit. But I do think like you would get a very much needed release from just allowing yourself to truly just feel it and let your body and listen to what those feelings are telling you.
Speaker 2:Because, had.
Speaker 1:I been aware of that before and I just always thought that I was going to like struggle with depression and I didn't realize like, oh, I'm depressed because my environment isn't safe. I was about to say I can't feel my feelings because my environment is not allowing me to feel my feelings feel my feelings because my environment is not allowing me to feel my feelings. So with that, can we go into, like maybe co-regulation? Yeah, because self-regulation is when you are capable of regulating your emotions without reacting. That's another part of emotional sobriety is like you are able to get yourself to a point where you're not emotionally reactive, you can feel your feelings and then you can respond, which is like that's a goal everybody should really have. Like emotional reactions are not fun, right?
Speaker 2:Right and I'm somebody who like like very big problem for me my entire life.
Speaker 1:But you've gotten so much better Like very big problem for me my entire life.
Speaker 2:But you've gotten so much better. I know, I know, but that was like something like I was very emotionally reactive, yeah, like, and it was very instant, like I felt anger, I reacted on that anger.
Speaker 1:So that should be, and I should have said this before but that's another part of emotional sobriety. So it's not just the not reaching and numbing, it's also being able to not react in the moment. Um and so with self-regulation. I don't know if this is going to make sense to some people Hopefully it does but like if I am having an emotional wave and I am spiraling for a long time, it would like stress my husband out and then he would start spiraling, and then we're both just in this like fucking tornado of emotions and neither one of us can get out of it, because I need him to be calm and he needs me to be calm. And then we're just like, yeah, it's a fucked up situation and it takes us a very long time to get out of it, and like oh God, okay, tony.
Speaker 2:Tony and I are very similar because, like, he is very reactive and I am very reactive. So then together, if like, it's like, we get along, wonderful, but if there's something like we really butt heads on, it's you getting that tornado? Oh yeah, because it's it's on, it's you getting that tornado? Oh yeah, because it's. It's.
Speaker 1:It's just hard because he's reactive and I'm reactive well, I also think for a long time my husband wasn't used to me expressing my emotions.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm sure um yeah, because you were somebody who you weren't necessarily reactive, you withdrew and isolated.
Speaker 1:I yeah, I kept it all in. Yeah, and so it wasn't. I was never like reactive to him. I would like. My trauma response was to like to fawn and be like I'm sorry, I got mad at you last night for not coming home.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I have never related to anything. I know we are very similar but polar opposites.
Speaker 1:Right, I know, I know and I get that Like looking back on it now I'm like, oh my God, that was so ick, yeah, but both are ick. Can you imagine?
Speaker 2:like losing your shit and you're like, okay, like I didn't probably need to, that wasn't necessary. Right, right, they're all ick.
Speaker 1:Come on, like the whole goal is to like be regulated Right. Um? So when I did start expressing my emotions because I realized like this was after my first mushroom journey, like oh, I have to like get this stuff out of me, he was not having it Like he was like I like you better on medication and I'm like of course you do, cause there's no accountability and you don't feel guilty and you don't have to like apologize to me for shit, like of course you did, but I'm not doing that, I'm raw dogging from now on.
Speaker 2:Good for you, and I've been raw dogging ever since.
Speaker 1:And it took it's like practice with anything else. It took him a long time to be able to like be okay with me expressing my emotions and it took it's like practice with anything else. It took him a long time to be able to like be okay with me expressing my emotions and it took me a long time to feel comfortable doing that. Yeah, but one of the things that was really really difficult for us was that co-regulation.
Speaker 1:And I used to say this to him all the time Like when you start spiraling, it takes me so much longer to pull myself out of this hole, but like if you stay calm, it helps me. I can do it without you. I don't need you to regulate me. I really I can do this perfectly fine on my own. It's just going to take a little bit longer, but if you're calm around me, it happens much, much quicker. But if you're calm around me, it happens much, much quicker. So that to me, is like that co-regulation, the healthy co-regulation, that like being in a safe space and having someone who can help you regulate. It's kind of what we do when we sit with people, Like we are letting you borrow our calm nervous system. So when you are going through a turbulent journey. You have someone there, who is calm, that you can like ground with.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I don't like like when we, when we say like we sit with people we're not really doing anything, but like, let's say, someone is going through a really challenging journey, I may just go and place my hand on their back just to let them know that I'm there, it's okay, they're safe, they're not alone.
Speaker 1:I have one friend. I feel like she would be okay with me saying this Sarah, who just fucking? Oh God she goes through it. She goes through her. Journeys are never easy and I have never experienced this with anybody but her. But she is like sobbing into my bosom like a little baby and I am just rocking her like a baby like trying to help her calm down.
Speaker 1:And I'm helping her regulate her nervous system and I am like staying calm, like, but at the same time I'm like it's fine. I think she's okay with me saying that she's very open about her journeys and what she goes through, and and maybe one day she can talk about it again on here, because they're hard for her, yeah, but about it again on here because they're hard for her, yeah, but I'm saying this because we've talked about, like how, until you like embody it, you don't really understand it. But this is something I've been trying to explain to my husband for years. Like I need you to stay calm. Like if you get in a tizzy, then I can't pull myself out of it. Like me having anxiety like used to freak him out, like, and then he would get anxiety. And I'm talking like simple things, like we're having a derby party and I need help and I'm like freaking out and I'm yelling at you to do this, and I'm yelling at you to do this and why is nobody helping me? And then he would start panicking. And then now it's gotten to the point where he like stays calm and then I start to calm down.
Speaker 1:Co-regulation um, we never talked about this on an episode, so I'm going to say it and I'm not going to give the whole story, but I'm going to explain why it finally started clicking with us. We did a mushroom journey at the same time together last November or maybe December. Yeah, jason and I my husband and I we've never done that before. We've always done them separately, like solo journeys. But this time we were like, let's do it together at the same time and we did six grams each. And we're laying in bed and before the peak of it starts happening, I'm like you've seen me like this in ayahuasca, like my body starts convulsing and like I cannot stop and it's. I'm having a very somatic experience, like my body is releasing all this stuff. Yeah, I can't stop it.
Speaker 2:I'm shaking like a dog. Well, when we did ayahuasca, I should have just. It was just your leg. You're like thumper, like pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop pop. I should have just sat on your leg. Yes, you should have just been like I'm co-regulating with you, bitch, Let me regulate your nervous system.
Speaker 1:Um, but for like, I've never had this happen before. It was just this one time. So we're laying in bed and we're both like with our blindfolds on and I'm like shaking and I can't stop. And so like finally, after a few minutes, like he reaches over and he pulls me to him and he pulls me into him. And the second he did, I stopped shaking and then I was like, oh wow, that was cool. And then I was like, okay, I'm regulated. Now I'm good, I'll go back over to my side of the bed and I like roll back over and then it starts again. I was like what the fuck? Like why can't I stop shaking? And he pulls me back in and that's where I stayed the rest of the journey. It was like on him, on his chest, he's like got his arm around me and I stopped shaking.
Speaker 1:But after that we talked about it and I was like I don't think you realize how much your nervous system and my nervous system are like connected, they're intertwined yeah, like you are my safe space and you are my partner and so when you are calm, it helps me stay calm and I try to do the same for you, like if you're upset or if you're going through something, I want to be that calm person for you. But for my husband it was really hard for him because he's never had to do that. He's never had to do that for anybody.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Not even for himself, Right. So that was how, and we really haven't had many situations since then where I've been like you're not staying calm for me, Like that emotional, like I need your emotional support right now, and you're not doing it. It's been like I don't want to say life changing, but like it's like he understood finally how important it was for him to stay calm because he saw it. He watched it happen physically.
Speaker 2:Do Tony and I need to do a journey together.
Speaker 1:I don't want to say yes, but maybe. But it might not be like that, it might be something completely different, right? So how.
Speaker 2:Since then, how has your relationship changed in the sense of like him showing up for you in a different way to help you co-regulate, and what does that look like so?
Speaker 1:I have. Well, first off, there haven't been a lot of instances where I've like gotten so emotionally dysregulated that I'm like losing my shit. We all know that last year I went through like my rage spells and that hasn't happened. But, um, I was trying to give you an example the other day. Um, let's say, like we rented our house out for the PGA tour and so like, for for weeks before that. I was like so anxious and cleaning and doing so much.
Speaker 2:And you and I are very similar in that way. Like sometimes those little things can feel very overwhelming and I get very overstimulated and anxious about them and then like yeah, it was, it was a lot, it was, it was so many things.
Speaker 1:And there were. I was like yelling at, like my kids, like I told you to clean your bathroom and you didn't clean the bathroom. And even my 16 year old was like, mom, calm down, you need to calm down. And I'm like, don't tell me to calm down. But then Jason comes and he's like, do you need to take a break? And I'm like, yes, yes, I do. And he was like all right, go in the room, I'll, I'll help them with the bathroom, like he helps now, or he'll check in with me Like um, there was an example I was telling you and I don't remember the specifics of why, but like I was upset and I came downstairs and I was doing a workout and I was like up, like visibly, I removed myself from the situation and came downstairs and it was like mid workout and he comes down and he's like are you okay?
Speaker 1:Like he checked in on me and even that like is not something he used to do, like before. I'm like what, you're not going to check it on me? You knew I was mad, you knew I left the room and he was like, but he doesn't know what to do with that, though Like it's almost like I know, but I'm scared of you.
Speaker 2:Tony does that a lot. I don't know what to do. I'm scared.
Speaker 1:Yes, he I think a lot of men are natural fixers and problem solvers.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so, like holding space and sitting and being calm and like kind of in this, not fixing it, but being more like are you okay? What do you need from me? Like showing up in that way instead of like curiosity. Yeah, instead of curiosity, and some flexibility instead of like okay, so she's mad, this I do. A, b, c, d. It's like. Well, not not always. Like I may need different things in different situations. Like right, but their thinking can oftentimes be.
Speaker 1:Can I fix this black and white? Yes, and how can I fix it? Yes, and what if I can't fix it, then then we're fucked right. So, yeah, it's helped, but I I think it also goes to show that it's like super important that, like, whenever you're doing this and this is why I say like not everybody can just feel their feelings, because they're not in an environment where it's safe to do so- and what do you say to that? Oh my God, oh my God.
Speaker 2:Well, that's the other thing. Going back to Summer House, how? She's like yeah, I struggle with depression and I'm thinking well, your husband is an alcoholic, your husband does not emotionally validate you, your husband is abusive, Like, so depression sounds about right considering your situation. And again, people who come to us for help when they are struggling with these things, and then they tell us a little bit about their, their life.
Speaker 1:You're like that makes sense. Yeah, so it's. It's not. It means not going to work for you because you're in an you're in an environment that is not safe.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it may work for you for two weeks, right, but it's not gonna like. So I I understand and I feel like it's your body's natural way of being like this isn't working for me.
Speaker 1:These medicines are not going to change your life unless you're willing to change your life.
Speaker 1:I forgot. I said that once. Fucking amen, amen, that's preach the word, sister, because I literally just met someone a few weeks ago and we were having like dinner and she was opening up to me about like I probably shouldn't give details I'm not going to give details, but how she's been struggling with depression and has treatment resistant depression and she's tried ketamine and she's done retreats and she's done A, b and C and D and E and F and none of them are working. And now she's going through a divorce and like feels better.
Speaker 2:Interesting.
Speaker 1:And I was talking to her about the ketamine, I was like, do you feel like it worked like for a little bit of time? And she's like it did.
Speaker 1:and I was like until it, did it until life came back, right until until you realize you're still in the same environment. Like you cannot remove a fish from dirty water and get the fish healthy and then put it back in the dirty water. You can't. So a lot of times when people you're right, like people will message us all the time like this is happening and this is happening, and this is happening and this is going on. And this is how long I've been struggling and this is what I've tried and nothing's working. And when you really get down to it, it's like it's all about your environment and who you're around and your safety and there are people who are not willing to shake that up.
Speaker 2:No, and that's okay, like, but you may feel this way, continue to feel this way because of that Like. So it's like the medicine, mushrooms or you know, whatever modality you're using. It may be a catalyst and open your eyes to something. But if you're not willing to like, change your atmosphere or change certain patterns, then you're going to go back to those old ways. And so I've talked to people and they're like you know, I have this shitty relationship and I hate this with my job, and so I'm depressed and it just is what it is. And so I'll try to say things like well, would you be willing to do this, or would you be willing to do that? Or, you know, would you be interested in looking into this more? And oftentimes, when they're like no, it just is what it is, I'm like OK, so then you're not ready to change. It's never, it is what it is.
Speaker 2:Right, you just want me to listen and just whatever. But like that's not what I'm here for. I'm here to help you move in this way, if, if, if you want to, but you gotta be willing to do put in some work with it. And not everybody is ready for that, right, because it is. It's like it is hard to look at your relationship. It is hard to look at, like you know if you need to quit that job. It is hard to look at, like your life patterns and your unhelp, unhealthy coping mechanisms, like it's hard to look at all of that stuff and dissect it and figure out why you do that and what else you could do instead, or whatever.
Speaker 1:But you just said something and it reminded me of something that I can possibly share, because I think this has come up a few times too, where where we have had people reach out and they've done a mushroom journey but, like, nothing is different for them, or they didn't get a lesson in the journey or they don't know what to do and they don't know how to integrate and we've said that a lot and I think there is. We never went into it because I I once upon a time wanted him to talk about it on his own. My husband talk about like his journey, because he talked about, like, getting sober and what that was like, like, but he never really said how and it was very vague, like, yes, he did a mushroom journey and, yes, that's what ultimately led him to get sober, but he didn't do mushrooms and wake up sober the next day, right, that never happened, and I think a lot of people might hear me say that and think that that's what happened, like he did mushrooms to get sober and that's why he's been sober for three years. It's not his story, and what you were saying earlier, like doing something like this, might wake you up to things. And I will say this it took him two to three months for him to finally decide that he needed to get sober Things in our life.
Speaker 1:After his mushroom journey got worse, amplified, my panic attacks started getting worse and what I said to someone the other day I was like, for what I think happened is that journey opened him up, it woke him up, it was. It removed this veil that he had where he thought that, like my panic attacks were fake or they were for attention or it was because I had emotional problems. It was because I had emotional problems and he for the first time saw me having these attacks and these mental breakdowns and was like oh my God, those are because of the way that I'm treating her. He was waking up to the fact that his actions were causing harm in our relationship. He didn't wake up and think I need to be sober. That's not how it happened.
Speaker 1:So a lot of times people think that, like the mushrooms, or like the psychedelics, or what's going to fix you, and it's like no, no, no, no, no, those are just like they're a little push and they're going to show you things, but you, like, free will is still a thing Like you have to ultimately be the one to make a decision and where those changes need to happen. You have to make the decision to make those changes.
Speaker 1:It'll show you where it'll show you where those things are going to show the fuck up and they're going to get loud. And I remember at one point him saying well, it didn't work for me because life is worse now than it was before. And I found an article and maybe I could still find it, but it was this article that talked about how life will get harder after doing a psychedelic, because things are amplified amplified and you're not seeing them for what you thought they were. You're seeing them for as they actually are shit and so it will seem harder. It was harder for me, it was harder for him like.
Speaker 1:To think that you're going to come out of this and it's going to be rainbows and butterflies is a very naive way of thinking. And maybe it is. Maybe that is how it works for you, because maybe you have a really good support team, maybe your relationship was already rock solid, maybe your work environment is healthy and great that's awesome. But for the people who really need to be shaken up like it's going to fucking shake them upside down and on their heads and say these are all the things and it's going to get louder.
Speaker 2:And I want to add to that. So I did a mushroom journey about three weeks ago.
Speaker 1:And that I have. No, I that we have not talked about, and I'm dying to hear about it.
Speaker 2:And this is like such a pattern. But my ancestors showed up again and a lot of the message was you keep trying to do in a manifesting generator and generator world, and that's not what you're meant to do. You are meant to do in a manifesting generator and generator world and that's not what you're meant to do. You are meant to just be and you are meant to be like you and that's it. Like that's literally.
Speaker 2:What you're meant to do here on this earth is to just be you and figure out what that is, and that's really hard because it is very hard just because we live in a society that is a do, do, do society, and your worth is based on what you do, yeah, and so, like I have really, uh, struggled with what my purpose is, because I have always equated it as what is it that I need to do here on this earth, and they were like bitch, no, like that's not it. That's not what you're meant to do. You're comparing yourself to everybody else and what they're doing and you are not meant to do that you are meant to be. But so I have had more anxiety since my journey. It's amplified, um, like I I actually kind of feel it right now where I have felt like tingly in my arms and have just felt anxious. But I know why it is it's because I've been too busy doing things and not just like being and sitting with myself enough, and so I've been trying to make these little changes.
Speaker 2:But I also know I have to, like, do a little bit more dissecting with my life and figure out some things that I need to say no to so I can rest more and be more and just sit with myself, not go to my phone. Sit with myself, not go to my phone, not go to TV. We go on a lot of trips for Tony's work. You travel a lot, travel a lot. I have a lot of different hats with different little jobs here and there, and so it just it's too much and my body's telling me it's too much and you need to sit and figure out, like, the things that you need to say no to. And so, instead of me being like, oh my God, I did this journey and now I have anxiety, this is annoying, it's like no, my body is telling me that I need less, and so I need to, like, really take a look at that and figure out what I need to pull back from.
Speaker 1:Why can't we just live on a beach and be like, do nothing, like that would be. Why do we? Why do we have to live like this, like? Why does everybody have to live Like like? Why we have to pay taxes? Why do we have to have jobs? Why do we have to like do all the things and buy all the things I know I just want like water and some land and to just like frolic because I agree.
Speaker 1:I think that, like so many people are like what's my purpose? What's my purpose? And I, I it's hard to like, tell someone like it's just to be you, be authentically you, because so many people don't know what that means.
Speaker 2:But I've, you know it's hard because it's like, well, one, if you don't know your human design, there's that part Like how do you know Right, you know what I mean Right. And so, like there are people who in my life, like I have a lot of wonderful people Like Tony, is this hustler and entrepreneur. You go down these rabbit holes. This person has this thing. So I'm like what is my thing? Like I don't know what my. So I've struggled with that and it's not personally against any of you guys. I hope you guys know that it's no, I get it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because I I like you say that about me, but I'm like, but I don't think that's my purpose, right, I don't feel like that, but like I probably bring something else to the table to someone else Like Jason's, probably not. Like my wife is awesome. She goes down so many rabbit holes. Like my wife is awesome, she goes down so many rabbit holes. Like for Jason, I'm something completely different because I'm just doing what I'm supposed to be doing with that.
Speaker 2:Right, and there's even still a little bit, a little part of me where I'm like how am I meant to be then? Like how, like if, like, if I'm just meant to show up as myself authentically and then things will come to me, because that was the other thing. Like you, be you and things will come to you for you. But I'm like, okay, but like how?
Speaker 1:do I be me, how do I be me, how do I be me?
Speaker 2:Right. And so now I'm like in situations where, like I would go work out and listen to a podcast or sit in the sauna or go for a walk. I'm trying to not do any of that and just actually just sit with myself like go for a walk without music, without headphones, without your phone yeah, without the distraction to just sit with myself and figure that out, and I think that's actually going to take a little bit of time for me holy shit.
Speaker 1:I think that that's like really hard for anybody like I go on drives and I listen to music. But like what if I just went on a silent drive?
Speaker 2:I'm constantly distracted.
Speaker 1:Silent walk.
Speaker 2:Even if I'm resting, you're right, cause I'm on my phone, I'm watching TV, I'm reading.
Speaker 1:When I'm resting, I'm watching.
Speaker 2:TV Right, and doesn't mean that those things are are are bad and I'm not going to not do those things anymore. But it's like to me, like reading podcasts, tv being with Tony, being out with other people those are all wonderful things, but like I don't sit with myself ever.
Speaker 1:Have you ever thought about doing like a solo retreat? But not like you had to pay a bunch of money and go and do a retreat. There's something they call them something like solo journeys where you are out in the woods for like a few days and it's just you by yourself and you don't have anything else.
Speaker 2:I would be worried about a bear or a man.
Speaker 1:I'm just saying Probably the man. I would be more worried about the man. But instead of doing that, why don't you like book a cabin at red river gorge for just you for the weekend?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Cause. Like I'm with you on that, like I'm not, I'm not like a naturey enough to be out in nature by myself with a tent. I've never camped in my life. I am a glamping queen but I have never camped Like when I say outdoorsy, like I want, like a bougie ass cabin.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:With like Right Quartz countertops and I don't want it to look loggy quartz countertops, and I don't want it to look loggy, you and I. Camping is like giving me paris and nicole richie 100. I can't do it.
Speaker 1:I can't do it, I'm just a girl but yes, like why you should do something like that, like just book a cabin away. What if, like, we book like cabins together but like separate? Yeah, for the same weekend. Yeah, here's the other thing too. Anybody else want to come? Anybody else want to meet us at the gorge, but everybody's in their own separate cabins Not talking to each other Not talking to each other, not talking to each other, but we're just there for moral support, knowing that like if I need anybody, I can call you and you're like a cabin away Right Carpool yeah.
Speaker 1:Just emotional regulation support.
Speaker 2:But the thing I realize is, like oftentimes when I was a kid, I was alone and I want to go back to that, but in a different, from a different lens. I understand what you're saying Like, because then it felt like abandonment, yeah, and now this feels more like empowering.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. Yeah, like reframe that loneliness.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so also I sent. Well, tony sent Leah a video of me, because so I did when you were on your, when you were on mushrooms yeah, I did mushrooms and mdma just because I wanted to see how which is?
Speaker 1:go, which is called hippie flipping, yeah.
Speaker 2:I loved it, and the reason why I loved it is because I felt like with the MDMA, it added another layer of embodiment. Oh, okay, like it was, I was like going through this experience, but I was like feeling this experience.
Speaker 1:So part of it was because MDMA is like physical, like you're not going to hallucinate on MDMA Right.
Speaker 2:What Right? So, like part of it was OK, so these my ancestors showed up and it's like you're not meant to do, you're here to just fucking be, and then things will come to you because you're just being like the most authentic you. And so the second part of it was like okay, now, bitch, embody that. And so I felt like I texted you. I felt like I had an exorcism in my bed, but I'm like, but not in a bad way, it was a good exorcism, but it was like me, literally like feeling and embodying what it means to be me. So I was having like this whole experience on my bed where I was just like rolling around and like not touching myself in a weird way, not in a weird way.
Speaker 2:Not in a sexual way, yeah, but like touching myself and like actually feeling like this is you, this is who you're meant to be. Now, just go actually like you're feeling it now, but now, now go live it and go beat it and figure that out, like I'm giving you like a little taste and go beat it and figure that out, like I'm giving you like a little taste, a little sample of what that means to truly, like, embody you and what you're meant to do here, holy shit. So that part was wild. But then Tony sent you a video.
Speaker 2:I could not stop laughing. Yes, like I. He came in to check if I was okay and I, just I could not stop laughing. And the reason why, like I could not stop laughing is then the message was like bitches, try to be you, but they are not you Like, so you can try, but you ain't it. Like I am my own unique self and bitches be mad. I don't know, I don't even understand. I don't understand that part, but it was like there are people who may try to steal it or try to dim it, but they can't right and like yeah, can I add to that?
Speaker 1:because not only can people not be you, but, like I think, you might go through a little bit of an identity crisis soon. I don't know. I don't know, I don't know, I went through mine already, but I feel like you've always like. You said that to me you were like, don't take offense, but like you, go down these rabbit holes. Why would I take offense to that? First off, second off, like that's my thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I don't need you to do my thing. I know that's what I do, I know, but, like you're, you're like searching for your place. I know and I'm like you have, you have a place. I know. It's literally what you're doing is your place. Yeah, like you have a role, like yeah, I couldn't describe it, I couldn't.
Speaker 2:I think that's not.
Speaker 1:I think that's what I'm having a hard time with I think that it's weird, because I feel like it is what it is. It is just being you, like you, you're just you. Yeah, you're funny, you're smart, you're pretty. I mean, those are stupid things but like it's, like me trying to date. You, you're cute and you're funny and you're smart and I just really like you a lot. But like you bring so much to the table, but like I feel like you think you don't.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And I don't know how to articulate. I don't either what it is that you bring to the table, because I feel like this message is specific for you yeah, and so that's where I'm a little confused about still, but I think that's a hard one.
Speaker 2:That's what I'm meant to integrate, to find out, and I think, too, that's another Testament on why integration is so important, because that part is, I still don't fully understand it yet, and so that's where I'm like okay which is why we haven't talked about it right now you got to get to work was like people may try to emulate you, but they never can, because that's that's you and that's only you, so like and that's not like an ego thing, no, no but it's also like stop worrying about other people yeah, like do you?
Speaker 2:yeah, just be a bad bitch and then figure what that means to you. I love that so much.
Speaker 1:How the hell do we start with emotional sobriety and end with this? I don't know. I love it though. I do too. I absolutely love it. I do too. I also love we talked about this the other day, but like Years ago, like this is such a minor thing, but like we were talking about how, like we struggled with our skin. I have struggled with my skin my entire life. Like I didn't have teenage acne.
Speaker 1:I've had lifelong adult acne adult acne Last year before I retired, it was like so bad it was all over my neck and chest, which is always weird.
Speaker 2:And you show up on my face. I know, but you and I both had the like acne on our chin and hormonal. And it's very hormonal, yeah, and I think chronic stress was a huge factor. I think we were doing things we didn't love to do and it's funny because both of our skin has cleared up so much, because we are, I think, stepping into ourselves and stepping into our power and healing and doing the work. And it's showing up on the outside as well.
Speaker 1:Yes, and this is what I said to you. I said I think our lives now have more peace than they used to have, like it doesn't mean we don't go through shit, but like there's so much more peace in what we're doing and in our lives and in our family lives. And again, it doesn't mean shit's perfect, but like there were just a lot of things that we had to let go of.
Speaker 2:Here's the other interesting thing that I find fascinating is that so you started this in 2020. I started this in 2021 or 2022, 2022. Ok, oh wow, it's only been two years, that's wild. Ok, but we have a lot of parallels, but they come at different times. A hundred percent. So I don't want to get too into it. I know we can, but I'm starting to read the heroine's journey.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes.
Speaker 2:And every.
Speaker 2:Finally, I'm like, oh fuck, oh shit, oh, okay, that makes so much sense.
Speaker 2:And right now, another thing that I'm working on and that I've realized about myself is I am detaching from certain things that used to, like really trigger the fuck out of me, and so I brought something up to you Like I have felt anger about this a parent of mine and now I'm at this place where I feel not saying that the things that I experienced when I was a child were they were unfair, they weren't right, they were all of those things.
Speaker 2:Like I was allowed and valid to feel those things and I needed to feel them and I needed to separate myself from this parent because, like, I was angry and I was sad and I had grief and all of those things. But now I'm at the point where I'm like they are not going to give me what I need ever, but I don't need it from them anymore because I have figured out how to give it to myself. I have learned how to be my own mother and my own father. I have learned how to be my own mother and my own father, and so I am able to still have them in my life because I've really over.
Speaker 1:I've really felt like over the last month I've truly been able to like detach a little bit the way that you said that to me when you texted me, that you were like I don't know how to explain this, but I feel disconnected, I feel detached, but not in a bad bit. The way that you said that to me when you texted me that you were like I don't know how to explain this, but I feel disconnected. I feel detached, but not in a bad way, and I was like, yeah, I know. Well, I know exactly what you're talking about, because it's what I had to do for myself.
Speaker 2:Right, and it's funny. Because what I love, though, about this friendship is you were like and this is where, like, support is so important in your partner, but also like having those friendships because you're like I've been waiting for you to get to this point, oh, and like I had to go through it, yeah, and I'm, I'm behind you in that way. Not I'm not comparing the race, but I'm just saying I had to go through all of those feelings.
Speaker 2:You had to go through exactly that situation To get to the point where I'm like yeah, I didn't get those things, but I don't need them anymore and I can give them to myself now, and so I don't need, like I don't have that expectation from you. Like I used to have like show up for me, me in this way, because this is what I need. It's like I don't need that anymore. So you're okay being you, but I got it.
Speaker 1:That is a level of healing. I will say this about pushing books onto people, because I do feel like I've sat on books for years before I've picked them up and read them and I feel like every time I do I started at the time that I'm supposed to. That's how I feel right now. I feel like if I had read it sooner, I wouldn't have understood it. It wouldn't have been relevant to my life, even though someone else may have thought it would be. I wasn't ready for that lesson.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, the heroine's journey for me was like another layer in like understanding my relationship and my role in my family with my mom, and it's something that my sisters will never understand, because they've like reached out to me and been like how are you okay with mom? And I'm like I have detached, and it doesn't mean I don't love her. It doesn't mean I don't like think of her as like my mom anymore. It's because I have detached myself from the expectation of her showing up in a way that she's never been able to my entire life. So why would I think she could do it now?
Speaker 2:Well, and also her not being able to. It's not something against you, right, that's her own stuff. But also, for the longest time, like as a child and as an adult, you do take it personally. Yeah, it does feel very personal because they're your parents and they should show up in a way that you need. It's not, it's, it's, it's their wounds and it's again. It's not, it's, it's, it's their wounds and it's again. It's another motivation on why I want to continue to heal. But uh, oh shit, I was gonna say something and I forgot I'm so sorry it's okay.
Speaker 1:Uh, I don't remember I'll think of it about, like the friendships that are on the same journey.
Speaker 2:Oh, oh, oh, yeah, yeah, because the wonderful thing is is you allowed me to like go through it and doctors like when I've seen Dr Sheely and have talked about this, he's like you know, he has constantly told me, like you are your own mom and dad and again, intellectually I know this. You hear what he's saying, I understand that, but I had to go through that anger and grief on my own and actually like feel it, to then get to a point where I am okay, like being more detached from it?
Speaker 1:Are you saying that you had to feel all of these emotions in order to get to the other side of this lesson?
Speaker 2:That's exactly what I'm saying, Leah.
Speaker 1:Did we just do a full loop-de-loop?
Speaker 2:We did On accident, by the way.
Speaker 1:That was a total accident.
Speaker 2:Coincidence.
Speaker 1:Like this is not even scripted. Sometimes I surprise myself. That was so awesome?
Speaker 2:Which? Can we talk about? The text messages I sent to you? Which ones so after my journey? Oh, on your mushroom.
Speaker 1:I sent her pictures, which I screenshot All of them.
Speaker 2:I sent her pictures where I'm just like tears streaming down my face and I think I said like thank you for being the friend who can be with Kai. You watch Kai, be with Kai and I know that he's safe, while I can go and find myself again. And I think that is like We've talked about losing friendships, but like when you find a friendship where you can be safe to feel all the things and and feel, feel like you can share them with your partner and your friends, that's a that's a very beautiful place to be in, so um.
Speaker 1:I love that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, thank you, that was the. What did you say. What did you say back? You're like oh, yeah, yeah, thank you, that was the. What did you say. What did you say back?
Speaker 1:you're like oh yeah, that's the MDMA talking right now. I was like oh, you took some MDMA, didn't you? This is just a stupid funny thing. But like you sent me one photo of you like I'm sobbing right now, and then, like 20 minutes later, you sent me another photo of you sobbing and I was like you already sent me this photo and then I looked and it wasn't the same photo, it was just a different photo of you sobbing. But they were like happy tears, happy tears like they're just feelings.
Speaker 1:It's just feelings, it is just emotions. Yes, and they are beautiful when they're good, yeah, and they're hard when they're hard. I don't want to say they're good, yeah, and they're hard when they're hard. I don't want to say they're bad, because they're hard when they're hard. But look how far it's gotten you, yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, and then also to like, if you're the feeler, if you're the feeler in your group or your family or whatever, like you know, really try to make sure you're in spaces where you are allowed, you're safe, you're safe to feel. And then also, if you're somebody who is maybe a little bit, you have a partner that's the feeler. Hold space for each other, like hold space where it is okay to feel those things, Even if they feel very, very uncomfortable for you. Feelings are not gonna kill you is somebody gonna match my freak is somebody gonna match my freak aka?
Speaker 1:you just can cry with me and like let me cry and you be my safe space. That's what I mean by freak. That's it. Just hold space for me. That's our kink, 100%. That's a love language. Seriously, it's our kink. So.
Speaker 2:Okay, I don't have anything else to add, but I love, I kind of like where this episode went.
Speaker 1:I do too. We haven't shot the shit in a while. It was Kadoos to us. Kadoos.
Speaker 2:Okay, kudos, I know it's kudos, it's. I've never heard you say that. It's a Bravo thing, okay.
Speaker 1:Yep, but kadoos to us. And if anybody Listen. This is a new thing that we just found out. Buzzsprout, our podcast platform, lets you send fan mail.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, Via text. Talk about that.
Speaker 1:So you guys could like literally text us mid-podcast and, like, send us something. The thing is, we don't know who it's from, though, and we can't respond. We could probably respond to them in episodes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, maybe we could do an episode where we're responding to different things.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because we got our first one. This is like a new update on Buzzsprout, but we got our first one on June 5th and I'm going to read it because I think we should read them out loud to people.
Speaker 1:I don't know who this person is, but they are from Stockton, california. They said I'm a user of psychedelics. They do have therapeutic value, but only in the right environment, with qualified therapists. You could really fuck your brain up. So you can't just woohoo, pop some acid and I'm fine, now, not going to happen. And to that we say we know, that's why we have a podcast that talks about how to do these things safely. Yeah, we know that we're not just literally the point.
Speaker 1:I don't know what episode they were referring to, but I don't know that we've ever said anything like that in an episode, without also going into the fact that like, by the way, yeah this is not for everyone and, by the way, there is a safe way to do this, and it doesn't just work like that, right?
Speaker 2:so I don't know who you are. I've not taken LSD yet because I want to wait for the right time with the right people, which will be me, yep, exactly. Let's go.
Speaker 1:Okay, so send us some fan mail. We'll read them and respond. I wish maybe, like if, because we don't see who it is like maybe, if you want, if you don't want to be anonymous, like tell us who you are and we'll call you out by name.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but if you want to be the anonymous, that's totally fine. Give us the tea.
Speaker 1:We'll still respond as ourselves. Okay, we'll see you guys on the other side.
