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Use code OTHERSIDE15 for 15% off of our favorite mushroom gummies!
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Okay, okay, welcome everybody to another episode of See you on the Other Side Today. I am so excited we have Lauren Myers here with us. She is the Director of Women's Programs at VETS, and VETS is a nonprofit that stands for Veterans Exploring Treatment Solutions. Hello, lauren, hi, lauren, hi, thanks for having me, thanks for coming on, and I was telling you earlier, I've been trying to get vets on for like three years. It's something. This is a topic that hits close to home for me and I really want to talk about how psychedelic treatment can help veterans. But I do want to get to vets later on, but first I kind of want to learn about you and your journey and kind of how you came into this space. So can you kind of introduce the listeners to who you are and how you got started?
Speaker 2:Sure, hello everyone, I'm Lauren Myers. Just a little bit about me. I'm born and raised in Los Angeles, california, went into the military in 1994. Women in the military in the 90s was a little bit interesting experience, I have to say. I was at the Air Force Academy and when I graduated from there I went on to become a pilot and retired in 2019. I did half my career flying and active duty and then the second half in reserves.
Speaker 2:I met my husband while in college. He became a Navy SEAL. So we had very busy lives, especially during the Iraq War, and you know we both really loved what we were doing. And I will say, probably about 10 or so years after a lot of his major deployments, we started seeing things surface for him like post-traumatic stress and traumatic brain injury and anxiety and depression and things like that. And so that is what led us to the psychedelic space he tried everything from. He probably spent a third of one year in inpatient treatment trying to get better talk therapy, pharmaceuticals, emdr, recreational therapy, like you name it. He tried it. He was desperate to get better and finally one day a good buddy of his from the seals checked in and said, hey, how are you doing and thankfully he was honest and just said not great. And that guy told him about psychedelic therapy, which we thought was crazy.
Speaker 2:Right, we're like you know. Hello, we're from the like, just say no you know, era.
Speaker 2:So, you know, it's like drugs, what you know. So, um, we, but at that point we had tried everything else and so we just thought, let's, let's do this. And so he went into it, um, at the beginning of 2020. So it's been just over four years and I remember just thinking, if he can just get better, we're going to be okay. That was just, that was my kind of mantra I had. If he can get better, we're going to be okay.
Speaker 2:Cause we were just struggling as a couple, as a family, as individuals, and I was just full-time focused on keeping him safe and our family safe and, you know, just managing a lot of things that come along with post-traumatic stress, traumatic brain injury, those things.
Speaker 2:And he went and he came back and he was so much better and it was like the guy that I met in 1995, his smile, touched his eyes, he like it just seemed like a weight had lifted off of him and I was so grateful for about a minute. And then, you know, then it was such a weird kind of experience because things were okay, and then suddenly I started feeling angry and resentful and jealous because he was better, but I still felt the same. And now my job of taking care of him and managing triggers and keeping the kids quiet and doing all these things like that was gone, and so it just left this open space in me for all of my unprocessed trauma that I didn't even know was there to come to the surface, trauma that I didn't even know was there to come to the surface, and it just hit me like a train and I fell apart. It was like we switched places overnight.
Speaker 3:Can I say something to that? So we just dropped an episode this past week about our personal experiences and similar but different. My husband got sober and when he got sober I got worse and our psychiatrist was like because you're finally safe enough to feel your stuff. And so that's kind of what that reminds me of. It's like I think, as women, we're so focused on being the managers and making sure everyone's safe and everyone's okay. And are you okay? All right, cool, cool. We don't do that enough with ourselves. So the minute something, someone else, is okay, I think that gives us like time and space to like our stuff starts to come up that we didn't know was there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's exactly it. Yeah, and because I'm not spending all that time doing the managing right and we can talk about this later. But that is one of my biggest focuses when I'm talking to spouses, as as the veterans are coming into our program so that they don't do what I did and I, I reassure them if I didn't derail his healing journey, you won't either, Can?
Speaker 1:I can I ask what um treatment he did?
Speaker 2:Um. So he uh went to Ibogaine um in Mexico, and that one we've seen be very, very effective for our veterans. It's um. We actually just completed a study with Stanford and they saw significant um improvement in post-traumatic stress anxiety and depression, um, and so that's typically what the veterans will go to, so that's what he went to.
Speaker 1:Okay, and can you explain what um Ibogaine is Cause I think a lot of people don't.
Speaker 3:We haven't done an episode on this.
Speaker 1:We've never done an episode on it.
Speaker 2:Oh, it sounds like you got an episode. Yeah, so Ibogaine comesaine comes from a root out of Africa. It's the most powerful. It's not really a true psychedelic, it's actually known as an oneirogen, which is it basically induces a waking dream state. So it's different from a psychedelic where you might be totally encompassed inside of this experience, whereas with Ibogaine you're still aware of your surroundings and it's like you're almost viewing as an observer what's happening, as it's working through these visions and things like that. It's also very, very long lasting. So where mushrooms might last four to maybe eight hours on the long end, this is in your system, 24 to 36 hours to maybe eight hours on the long end, this is in your system, 24 to 36 hours. So it's a very yeah, it's very, very intense, um, physically and, you know, visually and all that stuff.
Speaker 1:Typically, um, now, everyone's going to be different, obviously, but and it's shown to help a lot with addiction too.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, I think it's the only thing with opioid, yeah, yeah, and there's a lot of great information out there, but, yeah, it basically clears the receptors, um, and I I actually personally know people who have benefited from that to break opioid addictions Um, so it's, it's a very, very impressive medicine, but it is incredibly challenging, um, in multiple ways. So, uh, but it works, you know, and and so that's, uh, I think, why, uh, people are seeking that treatment now.
Speaker 3:So so when he came back, he was just completely different. And what do I do? He?
Speaker 2:was before, you know, and I had seen kind of a slow decline over you know seven or eight years, and it was manifesting in drinking, it was manifesting in depression, it was manifesting in panic attacks and it was just kind of increasing and increasing. And so that's why I was so focused on him and so that. But that's why this particular Ibogaine just works so incredibly well, um, to break kind of all that apart, or just you know, it will work like the other psychedelics where it allows people to process traumas without necessarily being re-traumatized. Um, you know, just kind of things like that.
Speaker 3:So, um, yeah, so anyway, I can't remember exactly where we were on that question but how long did it take before you were like, okay, I need to do this?
Speaker 2:Um days because I was so angry and so resentful and I was like this is not me. You know, like I, I, we literally switched places. I started binge drinking. I um I moved out of the bedroom, I? Um started keeping a hate journal, like it was.
Speaker 2:I was in a bad place, a really bad place, cause I was so resentful of all the work that I had put in for him. And now I was just like what is happening here? Like I just felt shattered really and um, and I knew it wasn't me, and thankfully, because he had done this treatment and he was very focused on healing and integration um, he had the space to hold for me in that moment and I, like I said I didn't derail his healing, so he just really supported me, thankfully, because I was a mess. I was an absolute mess. So I said, you know what you're going to get better. I'm going to go get better too.
Speaker 2:So I just started researching different, you know, psychedelic retreats and things like that, and I was like I'm just going to go do my own thing. And he said, well, hey, let's talk to the doctor that you know facilitated my retreat and just see what he recommends. And so I talked to him on maybe a Monday or a Tuesday and he said well, I'm hosting my first women's psilocybin retreat on Friday, if you can get to Costa Rica. And I said I'll be there.
Speaker 3:Holy shit Wow.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I went and I said that I just knew I needed it, you know, because we were operating on such different levels at that point, Like you know, it was just like he was up here and I was just down drowning, you know. And so I went and I did all the preparation I still fit in my two coaching sessions before I went and, you know, made my intentions and I just thought this has to work, Something has to work, you know, and I I didn't know what to expect because I have zero experience with any kind of um, mind altering substances, really.
Speaker 3:We were the dare graduates.
Speaker 2:Yeah, just say no. Um, so I went. I don't know where you. If you want me to keep going, yeah, I'm so into this yeah Story time. I need to clear my throat real quick, though I'm going to mute real quick, if that's okay. Yeah, I didn't want to like blast your face. I'm assuming you can edit some things.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Don't worry about it. Okay, great, so, yeah, so I went. I didn't know who I was going with at the time. We did not share. Uh, I went through vets, vets. So vets put my husband through the Ibogaine treatment and vets also, um, sent me to this retreat for psilocybin and um. At the time they wouldn't tell us who else would be there, cause they just want it.
Speaker 2:We're very we are very careful with people's identities. Not everybody wants people to know that they're seeking this type of treatment and stuff like that. So I just went by myself, didn't know who I was going to meet, and just was like I hope I can find them, you know, Um. So, yeah, I flew down there and um it, two other women, and it actually turned into. We have become the best of friends. This is four years later. We celebrate our psilocybin anniversary every year via text or whatever, and, yeah, they're just really, really special people, and so it was for me a very challenging experience, um, you know, and I went in.
Speaker 2:I was already in a pretty bad place when I went Um, and so for me it was physically challenging, like I. You know, it's not normal for people to purge um with psilocybin. I was, it was. Yeah, it was a thing for me, but it was. It served a purpose. It was towards the end. You know, the medicine was there.
Speaker 2:Theilocybin was saying the only way out is through, and you know what to do, and it was like, oh, you know, so I just it was hard and I don't necessarily like to share everything, just because I think everyone's experience is going to be the same and I never want to discourage anyone from trying just because mine was so terrible. But you know, I hear so often from people like, oh, was it a bad trip? Was it a bad trip? And I just don't think people really truly understand when they ask something like that. You know what a challenging experience like mine is actually doing. It's. It was truly helping me get through the traumas that I needed to process from. You know all different parts of my life actually, and what I my answer to people when they ask about to process from. You know all different parts of my life actually, and what I my answer to people when they ask about bad trips is you know, it wasn't a bad trip because I knew I was in a safe place with safe people, and so it allowed me the safety to go into a very physically, emotionally, mentally challenging experience like that, knowing that I was going to be safe. So, yes, was it hard? Absolutely. But was it bad? No, and that ended up being just so pivotal and transformational in my life. And when I came back to my husband, we were speaking the same language, if you will. He was up here and I was able to rise up to where he was and we were supporting each other through these healing modalities. And we were supporting each other through these healing modalities and you know we're very focused on integration and the different mind, body, spirit practices that support continued healing.
Speaker 2:Um, because that's also something I really like to emphasize is this the psychedelic portion is such a small piece of this healing journey and you know, especially for veterans and their spouses, like we have just been through so much Um, but also we are humans living in this really bonkers world and we're we're still have a mortgage and we still have bills and a lot of us have kids, and there's going to be daily stress and there's going to be future traumatic events, and so what the this, the psilocybin, is doing is giving you tools to process these things so that you don't store these traumas again, because that's all it is. It's stored traumas that don't get processed, and so that's what was so important for us on this path was just continuing to like. Yesterday afternoon we just went outside and picked a meditation and sat together, facing each other, and did the meditation together, and you know just, it's being committed to each other and to our own healing as well. So that's been our journey.
Speaker 1:I love that. I love it too, and you know we've we talk a lot about integration. Can you share, kind of like, what your opinion is on integration and what it means to you?
Speaker 2:Sure, Integration, I think, is the most important part of any psychedelic experience. Integration to me, means taking these lessons that have been shown to you in this experience and then figuring out how to incorporate that, to make the changes in your life so that you can become the person that you want to be and live the life that you want to live. And a lot of times it's not clear in the moment what that lesson is. It's something as you work through in the integration, working on, you know, coaching or meditation or whatever, walking in nature, some of those things can continue to process and you'll start to understand like, oh, that's what that meant. And for me, you know, sometimes it was like six months later I was like I remember that from the journey and now I get it. You know it makes sense.
Speaker 2:But that's why it takes so much time, because I think some people can fall into the trap of kind of chasing. It's not a high, obviously, but they're chasing that like great feeling that you often have after a psychedelic experience and then when the medicine wears off, they're like, oh, I need to do it again, rather than thinking like I don't know if you guys have ever seen a comic where there's this guy talking about like I think I need to go do psychedelics again. There's this like zombie like integrate me.
Speaker 1:Yes, I know exactly what you're talking about. We share that.
Speaker 3:I swear, I feel like we share it like once a month because it's so true.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it is tiny, like you know. Minute experience, you know, and then incorporating it into the rest of your life.
Speaker 1:I love that so much.
Speaker 3:Do you feel like that's why you waited another two years before you did a journey? Because that integration process was, like so much bigger than you expected it to be?
Speaker 2:Um, I waited two years cause I swore I would never do it again. It was so hard. Okay, that makes sense. Really really tough, physically tough journey, which isn't common for people with mushrooms?
Speaker 2:Yeah, Like I was in like a full body cramp, like I couldn't move, I couldn't talk. It was awful, but I think what I was doing was processing a lot of what his demons were, if you will, um and so, yeah, so I was releasing a lot of things and, uh, you know, the two other women had beautiful, like glorious frolic, literally frolicking the waterfalls experiences, and I was just like laid out on my bed, I couldn't move, I couldn't eat dinner. They were just like so pumped and I was like you guys can have my food. I was sad, like I just had so much stuff coming up and, um, you know, they, they held the space for me really beautifully, but it was really, really hard and I was like I'm good, I don't ever need to do anything like that again ever. But then I think, you know, as I continued, because I was so committed, I was going to the group integration calls, I was meditating, I was.
Speaker 2:I really love Qigong, I you know, if you haven't incorporated that practice, I highly recommend it. It's kind of like a predecessor to, or I think it is a predecessor to, tai Chi. So it's very much about moving energy through the body and helping to move your, your, your yourself, into the parasympathetic nervous system. So it's a really beautiful practice. Highly recommend it. So I had been very yeah, it's, it's phenomenal. So I'd been very dedicated to all of that and then I just started feeling this pull again to.
Speaker 2:And it was different this time because, for me, the first time I was in a low, hard, angry, sad place, and the second time I knew it was time for me to go again and it was more about determining how or what my purpose was in the world. How to, what is, what is my calling here? You know, what am I here to do? Who am I here to serve? Um, and I knew that was more of the basis for that. That second um, psilocybin journey, um. So that that's really why it took two years, because I didn't want to do it, because I and I didn't and you know they always talk about not setting expectations but I was like, well, if it was really bad the first time, it might be really bad the next time too, but it ended up being a really beautiful experience.
Speaker 3:I was going to ask. I was like did you get the rainbows and butterflies? Because?
Speaker 2:I did. It was amazing. It was absolutely amazing. Yeah, it was incredible. Um, and so that was two years ago and I guess I'm on a two-year cycle. I'm actually preparing to go again this summer to my third psilocybin journey.
Speaker 3:So are you going costa rica, uh mexico okay, nice, nice, yeah, I think that that's the thing that people really don't understand when we talk about what we do, because they think we're doing this like every weekend or every month and we're like whoa, no like.
Speaker 2:This is like once a year once every 18 months.
Speaker 3:Like I, even the good ones, even our good ones, are like they're a lot.
Speaker 2:There's still a lot to process. Absolutely yeah. There's just so much to work through and so much to process, if you're doing it for the right reasons and looking to heal and looking to integrate and looking to um you know, improve your life and improve the world around you.
Speaker 3:Yeah, Intention matters.
Speaker 1:Well, it's also too. It's not something um that I'm like oh, I'm going to go do this. I'm so excited, I am anxious, I am nervous I know that it's something that I need and I, and I, I start to feel when I need it, um, it's, it's almost like I think of it as just it's necessary. It's it's not necessarily like going to a party, um, and that's when, when, when people say that I, oh yeah, you don't know what it means because it's not like this fun thing I'm going to go do no.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think a lot of people have an idea like, oh, we're at a rave or whatever. No, yeah, it is. It's not fun. You know it really isn't. It's a lot of work. It's physically exhausting, even if it is a great experience. Um, you're, you're giving yourself a clean slate in your brain and that's exhausting. Yeah, um, so yeah, but it was just to kind of wrap back around to that second experience. I came out of there and I think that this is answering your very first question like how did I end up in this space? It was that second psilocybin journey. I came out of that knowing I wanted to serve somehow in some capacity in the psychedelic space, and within a couple months of me saying like putting it out there, like I really want to work in the psychedelic space, amber Capone called me from vets and said we want to create a position for you. We want to serve our spouses and our female veterans, and you were both, and so we think this would be the perfect position for you and that's how I ended up here.
Speaker 3:That's perfect. Look at the universe.
Speaker 1:And I want to get into vets in just a sec, but I wanted to ask one more question how has your family dynamic changed since both you and your husband have used these medicines? Because, obviously, I personally, it's made me a better partner, it's made me a better mom, it's all of these things, but what's? What's your experience?
Speaker 2:I would say the exact same. I'm a better partner and a better mother. It's given me this space. I've got two teenage girls and everyone's like, ooh, that must be hard, but it's amazing they're, they're incredible people. But I think, you know I'm I'm a big believer in like parents, are parents, not their kids friends. You know, like them, I'm a parent, but I treat them with respect. I, you know, I listened to them. I don't I pull them closer when they're struggling, like if they're having a hard time or they're, you know, getting sassy with me or whatever, I will pull them into a hug. I will not push them away, and I think that is a dynamic that absolutely has shifted within me, because I wasn't that way before. I have a lot more patience and just a better perspective, I think, on this role as a mom and a wife uh, you know to to support my family better.
Speaker 3:I think she did it like so the opposite of us, cause I loved what you said earlier about speaking the same language as your husband. Um, because Christine and I did it first, and then our partners didn't do it for like a year, but it was like when it finally happened, that's exactly what it felt like we're like okay, now you see what I see. Now you understand where.
Speaker 3:I am and that being able to hold space. But another thing that I was going to ask to piggyback on the parenting thing is like well, I was wondering if it was normal for you and I think I hear this with a lot of other parents after they do some type of psychedelic journey, to go through this phase of like feeling guilty for not knowing what you knew sooner and parenting different sooner. Did you ever feel that?
Speaker 2:different sooner. Did you ever feel that? You know, I think my first psilocybin journey was actually about releasing guilt, shame and obligation, and so I didn't really experience that, because you can't undo what you did. You know, I should say like every now, and then I'll think back to like why did I do that? But I don't beat myself up about it anymore and I just acknowledge it and I know I'm doing better now and the kids are benefiting from that. So I try not to, because that's a really low vibrational kind of place to be. So I try not to sit there for too long. I just like allow myself to feel it and then let it go.
Speaker 3:I love that. I love that that was your first journey. I was like oh wow. But you're like yeah, it was really hard, Okay, so all those lessons, yeah.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, yeah, I think you know. So, all those lessons, yeah, so, yeah, yeah, I think you know most people are in unison that we, we want to help veterans, but I feel like there's not that deep conversation about how we can help veterans and then their mental health, and so I just wanted to share some statistics with the listeners to get like a better grasp of how big of an issue this is and how much more we need to talk about it.
Speaker 3:And why vets is doing God's work.
Speaker 1:Yes, that too, and we'll get into that.
Speaker 1:But so I got this from charliehealthcom and then there's another nonprofit called SoundOff where we got this information from. But one in three vets from the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have PTSD and that's those who have come forward. Ptsd rates among female vets are more than double those of male vets. About one in 10 vets returning from war in Iraq and Afghanistan struggle with alcohol or drug use. About one in 10 outpatient military clinic appointments is for depression. Since 9-11, military suicide rates are four times higher than deaths in war operations. 22 vets commit suicide daily in the US.
Speaker 1:47% of post 9-11 vets who show signs of PTSD and depression do not seek help. 37% of soldiers and Marines felt mental health resources lack confidentiality and you know, before we interviewed you, we were talking about it and we were just talking about how sad um that is. And I have people that I know who served in Iraq and Afghanistan and it's common for them to be on 10 different medications and they still struggle and it's as somebody who is just, you know, a loving friend or a family member. It can be very hard to watch um, because I don't know and I don't understand that everything that they experienced um and went through. But I just personally feel like there are better ways to help veterans, and and we're, we're we need to do a better job. We need to do better. Yeah, um which.
Speaker 1:So now I want to get into vets and and and and and what you do and how you guys are able to help and how this kind of came about.
Speaker 2:Sure. So that's was born from Amber and Marcus Capone and his search for and their search really for, or her, I should say probably her search to basically save his life.
Speaker 2:Yeah, save his life. He was just on a path where I remember her on one of her other podcasts. She went on saying you know she didn't, if he was alive in a year or two, she would have been shocked. On saying you know she didn't, if he was alive in a year or two she would have been shocked. And so she heard about this psychedelic treatment from someone else and said, look, can we please try this? And it worked so well for him that they decided, like we need to get more guys coming through this. And so it started off very grassroots. Um, just, you know, a couple of guys at a time, um, actually we're coming up on the five-year anniversary of that's being started. So, um, you know, eventually, uh, they started to get enough interest from private donors that they could have a more formalized program and put through uh, put more guys through the program at the time, um, and I think I'm going to need you to repeat some of your questions, cause I don't remember.
Speaker 1:There are just I have so many about that.
Speaker 2:So what we're doing? So essentially what that has become is we have kind of three main pillars. One we provide um foundational grants for for veterans and their spouses to go seek psychedelic-assisted therapy. We don't provide the psychedelic-assisted therapy, we just provide the grants for them to go. They choose the location that they want to go, the psychedelic that they want to take. All of that we do have some vetted providers that most will typically go to, but there's a couple that will go to other places. We also.
Speaker 2:The second pillar is research. We partner with major universities to conduct research around psychedelics. So, like I mentioned earlier, a study with Stanford and Ibogaine. We've also got an ongoing one with the Ohio State University. I think there might be one upcoming with a university on the East Coast. So constantly looking to back the anecdotes of how well we know this works with science, because that's the key to our third pillar, which is advocating for legalizing this treatment for veterans in the United States. Right now our veterans who have served this country have to leave this country to go get meaningful treatment, because right now the treatment is woefully inadequate. As you mentioned, they're on multiple pharmaceuticals. It's just a bandaid and it doesn't get to the root of the problem, which is why they're still suffering. So now we have found something that works, but I think in order to get it to get past here in the U? S we need to have that science to back it up so those really go in hand in hand. So that's our focus from our three pillars and then from there we've just built out the program to support the veterans and their families.
Speaker 2:So my role as director of women's programs is to primarily work with the spouses and the female veterans that come through from our special operations veterans. Initially we were just really focused on the veterans and there wasn't a ton of support. So, like when my husband went through, there was nobody for me to talk to to prepare me. Cause I think if I had known, hey, this is normal to feel angry or resentful, I would have known like, maybe not to turn to alcohol, maybe not to be so angry, um, like that it was normal and that I should work on my own healing. I didn't know that I needed to work on my own healing and so that is my biggest focus. So I put together a 75-page workbook for spouses and supporters coming in to focus on their own healing and walk them through before he goes through his retreat, when he's at his retreat, and what to do after the retreat. We've got a preparation call that both the grant recipients and their supporters are welcome to come to so that they can understand what's going to happen. We don't like to set expectations, but just so that they understand the process and how things can work and they can hear from us I do this with my male counterpart and they can hear from both of us about our experiences weekly spouse support calls, weekly couples calls, um weekly women's integration calls.
Speaker 2:And then I've I set up a lot of different workshops, um, throughout every single month. We've got ongoing ones like heart centered communication, trauma release exercises. We've got weekly meditation, weekly breath work, weekly yoga. All of that is just the wraparound. Services are just the the. You know the real crux to this whole, this whole program, in helping people to keep moving forward and not just rely on that singular psychedelic experience.
Speaker 1:So you give them kind of like prep support, help during, and then integration help after.
Speaker 2:That's incredible. Yes, and everyone automatically gets five coaching sessions, one-on-one coaching sessions as well, so they'll typically do two beforehand and three afterwards. Those are the individual sessions and then the weekly group sessions as well. What?
Speaker 3:I love, like I love all of that, but one of the things that I love even more is that you provide spousal support.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's really been, I think, key to longer term healing for the veterans, because the veterans really can't truly heal unless the family heals together, and so the spousal support is, I think, making a huge impact in that. So they're getting connected to me right from the start. I'm having conversations with them right from the start, they're getting the workbook so that they're you know, they can see all of these things that they're feeling and thinking and wondering about. It's totally normal and everybody has the same questions, and I basically built it. I sat down with 10 spouses and said let's go back. You know, if you, when you first came to this program, what would you have wanted to know? And we, I built it out from there, and so it just came straight from the people that I support, um, to understand how to like, really support them with this workbook.
Speaker 3:Like this is normal. What you're going through is normal and you're not alone.
Speaker 2:And just hearing that, yeah, just hearing that is huge, and that's also why we invite um. Starting about a month prior to the retreat, we start inviting the spouses to come to the calls, just so that they can get support from women who are on the other side of it already Hearing like, okay, oh my gosh, you had that too. You feel that way too, because a lot of times about leading up to the retreat and a month prior, a lot of times issues will get worse with the veterans or anyone who's going to prepare to go to psychedelics. I don't know if you've ever noticed this for yourself, but sometimes your ego starts fighting back a little bit before you go to this psychedelic experience, and so things can be really amplified and so it can be really challenging for the spouses in that moment. So it's just great for them to have that support leading up to the retreat, absolutely.
Speaker 3:So I do know someone who was a Navy SEAL, who went through vets, and that's actually kind of how we found out about you guys in the first place, and this was years ago. And, from what I understand about their story, him and his wife, like as soon as she made the call, as soon as they made the call, he was on a plane like two days later to Mexico, and that's something that I really really love about. I mean, it sounds like it's kind of the same with you, like we're doing a retreat Friday, let's go Like it's like there's no waiting, like there is a little bit now, just because people have heard about us.
Speaker 2:A big wait list, okay.
Speaker 1:Okay, okay.
Speaker 2:Back then, back then, when, now, if someone is in crisis, we will work with them to get them um help as soon as we can Um. But typically, you know, we, we review applications, we are looking at you know who's the most, who has the biggest need, um, you know. And then so it can take a little while. It doesn't tend to, but it can take a little bit. It's not going to be like two days later, typically, okay, okay. Yeah, that was probably four or five years ago, yeah, when most people hadn't heard of that. But now there's, we have more demand than we can support now, oh wow.
Speaker 1:Unfortunately. So do you guys have plans to grow then? Because of that, Because there's such a obviously.
Speaker 2:We would love to, yeah, yeah, but there's also, you know, the financial considerations, you know. So we need people to donate to support the cause. That's going to be always the biggest factor that is going to help us to serve as many people as possible.
Speaker 3:And also like the legalities in the US. Like it would be so much easier, I think. I would think if it was like easier to access and right next door and instead of trying to make connections all throughout outside of the US.
Speaker 2:And we're taking these guys who are really struggling with anxiety and depression and all these other you know symptoms, and making them get on airplanes, which is often very uncomfortable, and making them travel to foreign countries. And you know, it's just, it's a huge ask for these guys that should be able to get treated here in the country that they serve.
Speaker 3:I didn't even think about that. Yeah, that's wild to me. So earlier, when she was um, that's wild to me. So earlier, when she was saying all of these statistics, one of the things that I remember reading and coming across was that there are we lose more veterans to suicide than in combat, and I don't know why more people don't know that. But the other thing that, like, really really bothers me is that not all of them come forward about their struggles. They don't feel safe to come forward, and so what we're hearing- about the people, or they feel like it will impact their career.
Speaker 3:Yes, like it'll impact their career. Soundoff is like an anonymous treatment place, like where they keep all of your information anonymous and it's it's. It's just really sad, kind of going back to what Christine was saying at the beginning, like how much we want to support our veterans, but how much we realize now we're not doing what we could be doing. We're not doing as much as we thought we were.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah it's. I think that is a real fear when you are still in the service, of coming forward because you can be removed from your job and you know that people don't want that to happen. So I think that's going to be a harder thing to shift to improve people coming forward for mental health support while active duty. I have seen huge improvement when people are finally out of the military, because even a few years ago nobody was really talking about how much they were struggling. Because the way I look at it is, these guys loved what they did, they loved what they did, but now they're suffering because of it and there's this cognitive dissonance. I shouldn't be suffering, I loved what I did, but they are, and so nobody wants to talk about that.
Speaker 2:But I think as more and more guys are coming through I shouldn't just say guys as more and more people are coming through our program and sharing it with their friends and the differences that they're seeing and feeling, more people are talking about their struggles and I mean, even for me I didn't ever want anyone to know that I went and did drugs, you know, to get better Like, yeah, that's, there's this.
Speaker 2:There's still a stigma and a shame associated the story that I shared with you at the beginning of this podcast. I never would have said four years ago, but now I realize unless I start talking about it and sharing my struggles, other people won't know like this is normal and I can get help for that. And I think also when people start to understand that this is not for the parties. This is. This is a lot of work and commitment and dedication to a very long process and you know, I think the military is the perfect example of that. They're like we are very dedicated and diligent people, so we're going to do this the right way and for the right reasons, and so people start to understand that more and hear more stories like mine or my husband's, or Marcus and Amber's and you know all the people that are coming through our program. That can make a difference, to start shifting the tide and the perception around seeking psychedelic assisted therapy.
Speaker 3:And I think that that's the biggest thing is like this is psychedelic assisted therapy, not just going out and doing mushrooms or ketamine or any other substance, like with just a friend at a concert.
Speaker 3:A friend of mine. Her brother is a veteran and I mentioned one at one point, something about ketamine, and she was like, oh yeah, no, he had a really bad experience during a surgery one time and was like hallucinating and he would never. And I'm like, oh, that really sucks, that like there's always a negative story or a bad trip. That like really makes people like terrified.
Speaker 2:to be open to like the therapy part of it, the right therapeutic side, of it, right, yeah, and that's why we're we so focused on set and setting. You know, having the intentions and the retreats that our people go to are absolutely incredible, like they're the best retreats I've been on, psychedelics or otherwise. They're just. They take such good care of our people and the food is incredible. And, you know, there's just so much more to it with with yoga and meditation and massages and group counseling sessions and all that stuff, and and so it just makes such a big difference, um to people, um, as they're going through the process.
Speaker 1:Do you have any um advice on how to talk to loved ones who are veterans, who have PTSD and who are struggling? Um, I sometimes think that when you present an option or a lifeline, it's um people can be offended by it or um very closed off to it because they're like drugs, like I'm not going to like why would I do drugs to get better? Um, mm-hmm. Do you have any feedback on like how to bridge that gap, to like inform and educate people who are maybe not open to talking or they think of this as bad?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I think there's so many resources out there now that are really starting to legitimize and mainstream at least the thought of it. So, like the how to change your mind series on Netflix is such a great starting point for people. You know, I just think the book is phenomenal and the series actually I'm sure you've seen it all expands on the book. It's not just like a repeat of the book, which I thought was amazing. I think that's a great starting point. Or like a Netflix.
Speaker 2:Another Netflix show called the mind explained about psychedelics. There's an episode just that people understand. The purpose is not to. I think when people view this as drugs, it's they're seeing it as someone using it to numb, just like they've used alcohol or other substances to numb. But the whole point of psychedelics is to help you feel and you know this is what we tell everyone on our preparation call that it's not about feeling better, it's about getting better at feeling and so helping people to understand that piece.
Speaker 2:So you know, if you want to share those, just say like hey, you know I've been. I mean, you guys have a podcast all about this, so you can be like I look at all these resources, thought you might be interested, just sharing something like that or sharing other podcasts. There's so many podcasts out there where even our grant recipients have have been on, or Marcus and Amber have been on. There's so many things out there that you can share with people and just say, hey, I thought you might be interested, or you know, and if you don't, if you don't even want to be that secretive and just be like you know, I love you, I'm concerned about you, I just want to help. Here's maybe something to check out, and all you can do is offer it to them, cause the thing is, you cannot force somebody to heal.
Speaker 2:You cannot force someone to heal and so yeah, I know, I know, trust me. But you can lay it before them, you know, and then it's up to them to pick up the breadcrumbs and follow the trail to get there. But if you don't tell them about it then they don't know, you know. So you have to open the door, at least for them to be able to walk.
Speaker 1:It's always a battle of like am I sharing or am I being annoying?
Speaker 2:I guess yeah, but you know, if being annoying is going to save someone's life, be annoying.
Speaker 3:So true, I'd rather be annoying. I would rather be annoying. I really like what you said earlier. It's about like, not like. What did she say about learning how to feel?
Speaker 2:Oh no, not feeling better, but getting better at feeling. That I can't. That's not my quote, I don't know who first said it, but it's amazing, we're clipping it anyway.
Speaker 1:Cause that was never heard that before.
Speaker 3:And that is like the truest thing I've ever heard, because I think so many people are terrified to do these modality, to try these modalities, because they're like, well, I don't want to relive that, or I don't want to feel that and I'm like but you're feeling it every day, anyway, you just don't realize it, like it's showing up every day, anyway, you're just running from it, yeah.
Speaker 2:So that's, the body keeps the score of that book. The body keeps the score. That's another great resource to share with people. Just share it with a trigger warning that one's a heavy, a little bit of a heavy it is, but I think it helps people understand the like you know.
Speaker 2:So here's the way I look at it, especially for veterans and having been one myself, when I was flying and I had something stressful or scary or something really awful happen, I didn't have time to process it because I'm flying a plane at hundreds of miles an hour, so I had to box it up, put it away. I'll deal with it later. You know, same thing for our special operations warriors. They're in the middle of gunfights. They see someone get shot. You know they can't be like lay down and cry. They got to keep fighting to get out of there. They have they box it up, put it away, process it later.
Speaker 2:The problem is nobody processes it and so now, decades later from when these things first happened, they don't understand. Why am I angry all the time Like nothing really happened? I know I shouldn't be having a panic attack, but I am like, logically, it's because it's literally stored in their tissues and it has to come out at some point, and so now the body's letting it out, and that that's why they're not not not understanding it. Um, so it's just so important. That's an, I just think, another great resource to share with people.
Speaker 3:For that reason, you literally just summed the body keeps the score in like 30 seconds, I love that the quick version.
Speaker 1:You're right though.
Speaker 2:I don't think.
Speaker 3:The non-heavy version, yes, I don't think people realize, and we say this all the time, like it's still there, like you didn't just get rid of it. It's, it's showing up in other ways, so Right.
Speaker 2:Right. And is it Gabo Mate who says, like trauma is not what happened to you, it's what happened in your body when the trauma happened? Yeah, you know. So so much of what happens to is like, did you have someone there to support you in that moment to process it, or could you even process it? So, yeah, that's. It's just.
Speaker 1:it's so much about the body, and that's why psychedelics are so effective, because it helps to release it from the body, so then you can start processing well, and I I think too about like just society's conditioning, family conditioning, you know, growing up with child trauma and then for somebody to join the military and then have those traumatic experiences like in war and all of that and I'm like it just is like layered on and so it's.
Speaker 1:It's the psychedelics, it's like that fresh pile of snow, that kind of it's that fresh snowfall. So, instead of always going this way, this way and this way, like you always have done, it's like no, you can go this way now and you can go this way, and you can go this way, yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, or I was having a conversation with someone a couple of weeks ago where I said you know these other substances like they might take you out of the head momentarily, but the psychedelics will take you out of your head and put you into your heart. So, and that's to me like a much better alternative than the substances to numb personally.
Speaker 2:So yeah, well it's. It's about connecting to the body. It's all about connecting to the body because we spend so much time disconnected and up in our thoughts, not realizing like, oh, that heartburn I have is actually anger or whatever. You know, it's just, there's so much in there to process.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so what other? I know that vets doesn't provide the modalities and I'm sure that you all have so many connections around the world for different medicines. Um, what modalities do you guys work with?
Speaker 2:Like we said, Ibogaine for sure, ibogaine and psilocybin for sure. We do have some people who choose to go to ayahuasca occasionally, occasionally ketamine, not as often. Um um Iboga. Some people have gone to Iboga instead of Ibogaine. Iboga is the actual root bark, whereas Ibogaine is the pure um particle, particle.
Speaker 3:So I thought they were the same thing. I didn't know that. Oh, wow, okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, so there's, there's a difference there. So those are kind of the main ones um that people are utilizing.
Speaker 3:Has there been any with MDMA um that?
Speaker 2:people are utilizing. Has there been?
Speaker 3:any with MDMA? Um, I don't think so.
Speaker 2:Those are harder to find you don't really like hear about a lot of MDMA retreats. Yeah, no, I don't think so. I mean, you know, obviously Johns Hopkins had that huge, huge study that they've got. But, um, I know that they are starting to look at MDMA for couples, um, which is actually pretty unique. If they decide to move forward with it, it would be the first time that a spouse would get treated as well, um, not just the veterans, oh, like veteran couples Okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, veteran couples Okay, um, so I don't think that that I don't know where that is, um in a in the process or anything but anything. But I know that's something I've heard mentioned before. But yeah, I would say the Ibogaine psilocybin are the two main ones.
Speaker 1:A 5-MeO DMT also is another one as well, like active in, and I don't know if this is a dumb question, but anyone who is kind of actively serving right now, they will not get access to it because no, no, they can't and we won't.
Speaker 2:we won't put anyone through that's active duty. They have to wait till they're out of the military to do it.
Speaker 1:Hopefully, hopefully, one day.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, that was recently passed in the NDAA bill um that active duty members could be included in psychedelic research. So it did it did pass.
Speaker 1:I didn't know that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. Now it's down the road, probably when anything would actually happen, but at least like the fact that a bill passed with psychedelics and active duty members in the same paragraph is pretty amazing to me. So, um, yeah, it's definitely being talked about and considered. Um, and it did pass um just earlier this year.
Speaker 1:That's wonderful and I'm glad I asked that question.
Speaker 3:I know, yeah, I wasn't sure, yeah, um.
Speaker 1:So what else, like what is the hope for vets in the future? Because obviously over the last five years you guys have grown tremendously. What's the goal for the next five years?
Speaker 2:I mean, I know the ultimate goal is to basically be out of business where it becomes legalized. And they, you know, they don't need us to do this. You know, because, as I mentioned earlier, the demand exceeds our capabilities. And you know, I think serving the special operations veteran population, it's a very small population and even just within that population we still can't help everybody that wants help. But I think they are key to getting legislation passed down the road to then open it up to all veterans.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, that would be ideally the goal, you know, and I think just, but along the way, you know, getting more studies done to have more science to back up these stories of great success that we have. And you know, I'm not sure what else. It's just, I think, just to help as many people as we can, you know, but it's, there's always going to be like that. Where's the tipping point of where we want to be able to do it well and we want to be able to support everybody, um, in the best way that we can. So it's just finding that that groove.
Speaker 1:What are ways that um us regular folks, civilians, civilians can help?
Speaker 2:um, you know, sharing our social media encouraging people to donate to us. Um, you know, if anyone is interested in donating, we're all all private donation funded, so just the more donations that we can get, the more people that we can serve, cause it's it costs typically about $7,500 to put um a veteran through the program with coaching and everything. So if we can start getting more funds raised to help, then that's that's the biggest thing is just sharing, raising awareness, sharing stories. I actually did a couple of Instagram live interviews with one of our grant recipients. So just sharing those people's stories. I think that's what really helps the most is to get that information out there and people to see like these are real people who are getting real benefit from real medicine, if you will. It's just such a difference from the pharmaceutical world and the things that just are just a band-aid. It's like helping people get to the root of their issues and processing and then finally moving from surviving to thriving.
Speaker 3:Well, and that's the thing, Like this is one of those like last resort situations for a lot of people and we're hoping that like it's not that anymore, like you don't have to jump through books and try all these medicines and modalities to finally find solace.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I think that's where you know, in active duty. Obviously they can't utilize these, these psychedelics yet, but if they started preemptively teaching breath work or meditation or, you know, giving them tools that would help process these traumatic situations in the moment or trauma release exercises phenomenal, and all it is is shaking your legs it can make a huge impact on what they experience down the road to lessen the severity or prevent it altogether. Is that happening?
Speaker 3:or no.
Speaker 2:No, that's what I think should happen.
Speaker 3:I was like why aren't they doing that? Wait a minute, Right, right. Especially if, like, we know that once you're out of once you're not in duty anymore. These are things that are continuing to show up in veterans, like, why are we not steamrolling and getting into it before Interesting? Yeah, very interesting. We'll get there someday, hopefully Interesting.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Very interesting.
Speaker 2:We'll get there someday. Okay, I hope so too. I really do.
Speaker 3:It's baby steps. Well, we're going to get the word out for sure. Um, we've been like saving stats just to post this week, or with this episode. Um, specifically, and you know, get out there and don't just eat a hot dog to celebrate Veterans Day and you know, like, actually do something. So hopefully a lot of people will hear this and have a different mindset.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you know, I think everyone can support a different aspect of it. If someone's more interested in research, you know, donate for that. If you're interested in advocating for legalization, donate for that. If you want to just help put people through the program, donate for that. You know, pick your avenue and just support it, love that.
Speaker 1:I love that so much. Thank you for coming on. Thank you for sharing your story. We love all that you're doing and the voice you're being in this space and grateful we got to talk to you today and, yeah, you're wonderful.
Speaker 3:Thank you for your service, but you're still serving Like you're still serving.
Speaker 2:So thank you for all of it.
Speaker 3:Thank you, no, it's my honor, all right, and to all of our listeners, we will link vets in the link notes below and we'll see you guys on the other side.