Happy Bicycle Day to those who celebrate! And to those who don't...it's story time. This episode isn't just a history lesson; it's an investigation into the therapeutic effects of LSD. Let's dive into the cultural ties between psychedelic use and music preferences, and get into how these substances have been linked to iconic movements, counterculture and the war on drugs.
Venture through the shadowy corridors of LSD's past with us as we uncover stories from the serendipitous discovery by Albert Hofmann to the chilling MK-Ultra experiments. We illuminate the societal implications and cultural shifts brought about by LSD, acknowledging the contributions of visionaries like Timothy Leary and Ram Dass in our understanding of consciousness.
Finally, we confront the ethical conundrums and practical challenges of psychedelic use in today's world. You'll hear tales of personal transformation, insights into literature, and the paradoxes that make LSD such an enigma. Christine offers her perspective on the evolving perceptions of psychedelics and the importance of maintaining curiosity when diving into the depths of the mind. Whether you're a psychedelic enthusiast or just keen on the influence of these substances on self-awareness and culture, this episode invites you to peer through the kaleidoscope of LSD's fascinating landscape.
Armchair Expert MK-Ultra Podcast: https://open.spotify.com/episode/7F2sG7xIrbPmvmxi4Gyzkn?si=cu-kZQPSTmSUnfrua7Fc4A
Books We Recommend: https://amzn.to/4aFyrnU
Colors
Use code OTHERSIDE15 for 15% off of our favorite mushroom gummies!
Our Website:
https://linktr.ee/seeyouontheothersidepodcast
Happy Bicycle Day to those who celebrate! And to those who don't...it's story time. This episode isn't just a history lesson; it's an investigation into the therapeutic effects of LSD. Let's dive into the cultural ties between psychedelic use and music preferences, and get into how these substances have been linked to iconic movements, counterculture and the war on drugs.
Venture through the shadowy corridors of LSD's past with us as we uncover stories from the serendipitous discovery by Albert Hofmann to the chilling MK-Ultra experiments. We illuminate the societal implications and cultural shifts brought about by LSD, acknowledging the contributions of visionaries like Timothy Leary and Ram Dass in our understanding of consciousness.
Finally, we confront the ethical conundrums and practical challenges of psychedelic use in today's world. You'll hear tales of personal transformation, insights into literature, and the paradoxes that make LSD such an enigma. Christine offers her perspective on the evolving perceptions of psychedelics and the importance of maintaining curiosity when diving into the depths of the mind. Whether you're a psychedelic enthusiast or just keen on the influence of these substances on self-awareness and culture, this episode invites you to peer through the kaleidoscope of LSD's fascinating landscape.
Armchair Expert MK-Ultra Podcast: https://open.spotify.com/episode/7F2sG7xIrbPmvmxi4Gyzkn?si=cu-kZQPSTmSUnfrua7Fc4A
Books We Recommend: https://amzn.to/4aFyrnU
Colors
Use code OTHERSIDE15 for 15% off of our favorite mushroom gummies!
Our Website:
https://linktr.ee/seeyouontheothersidepodcast
Okay, welcome back, christine. I'm so excited to talk to you today about LSD.
Speaker 2:LSD, the psychedelic I've never done. Well, you have. I've microdosed LSD. For those that don't know, if you have ADHD, microdosing LSD can be A really good tool. Yeah, and really beneficial form of microdosing. Like, microdosing mushrooms made me really tired, so I usually, if I microdose, I like to take them at night.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But LSD helps with focus and makes me feel like, okay, I could do this, this.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's a reason for that? Okay, well, and we'll get into like the microdosing part of it. But, like from what I have learned about microdosing with different substances, when you are microdosing psilocybin, you're working on inner stuff and microdosing with LSD is outer stuff. So if you want to be more creative, more focused, like external things, you're going to do LSD.
Speaker 2:If you want to work on some inner, like trauma and like angst or anxiety, like you're going to want psilocybin angst, or anxiety like you're going to want, um, psilocybin, and that's very interesting because I feel like kind of a lot of things that show up for me are rest, slowing down, softness.
Speaker 1:And we've had. I've had people reach out to me before who microdose mushrooms and they're like it just makes me tired. And I'm like are you getting enough sleep me tired. And I'm like are you getting enough sleep? Like, are you taking care of yourself? Yeah. Are you resting? Yeah, and most of the time the answer is like, well, no. And I'm like, okay, well, you know, if you don't like that, take it at night and you'll have a good night's rest. But you know, some people are like, oh, they're telling me to sit down and take a nap Okay, oh, they're telling me to sit down and take a nap. Okay, I love a nap, I love doing nothing.
Speaker 2:Oh, it's my favorite thing and I don't do enough of it, so I do not feel guilty for doing nothing, oh.
Speaker 2:God, no, I think I used to. Yeah. No, I know I used to yeah, yeah, same, but I, I I wish I could rest more. Yeah, that's my goal. There's not enough rest time. You know how people say like you can sleep when you're dead. Yeah, and I'm like, why would I want to do that? Some of my best memories are just me hanging out in bed, like I have the best time in bed. I don't know what you're like. What do you mean? I don't. That quote does not resonate with me at all.
Speaker 1:Well, and there was a big part of me that always felt guilty, because my husband is a manifesting generator who is go, go, go, go go and he does really struggle with rest, like he's the type of person who feels guilty when he's resting, and so just being around that type of energy, I felt guilty when I was resting.
Speaker 2:I could not imagine being married to a manifesting generator. Generator.
Speaker 1:It's hard. But now he knows like I'm like, look dude, like I'm not fucking lazy, I just write we're wired, I'm not like you.
Speaker 2:Right, and I'm OK with that. I need you to be okay with it too.
Speaker 1:I'm not fucking lazy, I'm just burnt the fuck out, oh God. Anyway. So the reason that I wanted to do this episode today and the reason that we're dropping this couple of days early, it's because a holiday is coming up. What's the holiday? Leah, the holiday is a bicycle day, which is April 19th, the day before 420. Oh yeah, and I have been in a three day rabbit hole for you, oh, excited.
Speaker 2:You have not told me this, I know.
Speaker 1:I've been. I've watched two documentaries, I have Googled, I have printed stuff out, I've taken notes One of the documentaries I've already watched, but I wanted to like brush up on it. Um, but one of the things that I found so fucking fascinating is that a lot of people think that four 20 was a thing of the grateful dead, like they started four 20. Uh huh, there are so many connections between the grateful dead, lsd, the LSD movement and 420, the cannabis culture. Okay, and I was like down this fucking rabbit hole, like, oh my God, they're here and they're here and they're here. And I'm going to be honest, I don't know much about the Grateful Dead, other than, like, they were pioneers in the LSD movement. Yeah, I don't know much about them either. I couldn't tell you a song they sing. No, that makes me sound very boring, like I'm not into psychedelics, because I feel like it's this staple, like if you're into psychedelics, you know everything about the Grateful Dead.
Speaker 1:And I'm like well, I don't, but we're also not about into fitting into boxes, right, and I didn't grow up in the 70s and in that culture and, honestly, like even when I was a teenager, I wasn't allowed to listen to secular music.
Speaker 2:So and also can you just like psychedelics, but like you, grew up listening to the Spice Girls.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, I was an alt girly Like I just I just discovered what that is and like an alternative, yeah, like when I'm in my car I'm listening to like lithium and like nineties, like grunge. That's funny. I was not into, like the Backstreet Boys and the NSYNC, like I was an alt girl, okay Well.
Speaker 2:I love Korean pop, so I'm a K-pop girly.
Speaker 1:Little BTS. You know that doesn't shock me, but I don't know how many listeners that will shock. I love a dance number Not me.
Speaker 1:I just want you know what I think about it. I think about this, though I am very I have such an attachment to music and it's it's always in my journeys. There's such an attachment to music like I love to feel. Yeah, the song, yeah, in 90s grunge it was just all this like teenage angst, yeah, and like feelings and it wasn't about I love you, girl, and like all that shit, like it wasn't that. It was like you know, creep, I'm a loser, like this guy feeling like he doesn't fit in and like wrote a whole song about it, like by radiohead, like that fucking song fucks me up every time and I have a story about that, actually while I was on lsd. Okay, are you gonna tell that later?
Speaker 2:I will put a pin. So you have two pins right now. What is my first one? Um, lsd and microdose and then, but for me, I like to dance like you like to feel I like to dance and I like to move and so I like things that I can know I'm the girl that's crying on the dance floor to rufus because I feel it in my soul you're like the girl at the concert where like rufus is playing and I look over and you're like crying Hundred percent I did.
Speaker 1:I was like you looked over and I was just like in my feels because, yeah, I did. Yeah, it's a very different thing for me. Music is a very different is a very heavy thing for me. Yeah, ok, so let's get started. The start of LSD.
Speaker 2:I love these rabbit holes that you go down. By the way they're like, it's like one of my favorite things about you.
Speaker 1:Well, and one of the things I was talking to my husband about last night and to you, I was like I was never good in school with like writing research papers, but I am so good at finding resources.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but you probably weren't good at that kind of stuff because it wasn't your interest.
Speaker 1:No, yeah, but you probably weren't good at that kind of stuff because it wasn't your interest.
Speaker 2:No, again, right, right, going back to fitting in the box and having to learn a certain way. And there's one way.
Speaker 1:I still don't think I could write a research paper on this or any type of paper. I just absorb the information and I tell it to you like you're five.
Speaker 2:Well, and that's how I learn. I learned by, like, hearing other people explain it, yes, storytelling and and like I would rather do that that's actually a thing like.
Speaker 1:You learn more and faster and quicker by playing and making it fun than like. That's why like hamilton was such a really fucking awesome show. I learned more about the history of the US from Hamilton than I ever did in history school.
Speaker 2:OK, good to know. So go to Hamilton oh yes, ok, it's so good.
Speaker 1:Ok, so Albert Hoffman was a Swiss chemist who worked for a company called Sandoz in Switzerland, and he discovered lysergic acid diethylamide.
Speaker 2:LSD, you're wearing your glasses today. I look smart, don't I?
Speaker 1:This is why I'm for the people. Okay, I'm here to explain this easily. So he discovered acid. It's a compound derived from ergot, which is a fungus that grows on rye. He actually was doing it for, like a blood, like he was creating a medicine for blood clotting. Oh, okay, and I want to start off by saying, like some of these things, I might fuck up and get wrong, and I am OK with that. Like I'm not the expert, I'm just regurgitating what I've learned and I tried to take notes to the best of my ability. If I fuck up, I'm sorry.
Speaker 2:And also just message us and say, actually I'm not going to take offense to that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like I'd be like. Oh, thank you. We're here to that, yeah, like I'd be like, oh, thank you, we're here to learn, yeah, yeah, we're here to grow. Um. So he actually discovered it in 1938, but five years later is when he actually ingested it. Okay. So he didn't know what it did and he took an amount um April 19th 1943. So bicycle day comes into play, because what he did after that is he went home on his bicycle. As he was riding home starts having all these hallucinations tripping ball tripping, fucking.
Speaker 2:I can't imagine like being on LSD and going for a bike ride.
Speaker 1:Well, and at the time, like he didn't under he didn't know what it was, and there are doses, right, that LSD is one of those things that you dose in micrograms because it is so potent. Well, so, like you get, you dip your pinky in that shit and lick it like you're tripping balls for days.
Speaker 2:So it makes me think of that story where that woman thought she was doing a line of coke that's in my notes, Okay. And then she actually did like you can correct me, but it was like 300 times the amount, it was 550 times the amount and she actually took LSD. And what's funny about that story and you can get into that later- no, you can tell me.
Speaker 1:Oh okay, I literally just read this. I don't have it in my notes, but I was going to share it.
Speaker 2:Okay, is that she like meant to snort a line of Coke? So, just like whatever. And then she actually had healing benefits from doing so much LSD Cause. Didn't it like, did, did? Was she bipolar or? Um, well, there's actually with addiction or something.
Speaker 1:She struggled with addiction. Um, there was also like and she was, she was on opiates and um, from like a foot injury that happened like 20 years prior, like she also had lyme disease. So she was like really struggling. So yeah, she did a line of Coke that she thought was Coke and it was LSD.
Speaker 2:Imagine, like accidentally healing yourself, but you actually meant to do a line of cocaine.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yes, that's fucking insane. There was another story where, like a teenage girl took too much, she really struggled with her like um that one was that one was bipolar. Yes, that was the one that was bipolar. And um months later she like no longer has suicidal ideations and it's just fucking wild Cause. You're like I'm going to get fucked up. And you're like, oh, I accidentally healed myself.
Speaker 2:It's so funny because yesterday I went to the hair salon and there was another hairstylist working with another girl and the woman was talking about all I heard is war on drugs and LSD. Wait what, yeah? And so I heard this in the hair salon, yes. And so I turned around and I'm like, um, excuse me, what are you guys talking about? What are you guys talking about? See this, uh, mushroom on my arm. What are you guys talking about? What are you guys talking about? See this mushroom on my arm. What are you guys chatting about? Shut the fuck up.
Speaker 1:And they were talking about psychedelics and I was like well, I am at the right place.
Speaker 2:Let's talk, shut up. Can I join in on the conversation? Yes, it was. It was, I think, a nurse practitioner is what she said, but she was going to move. She got a job offer to like work, have a place in psychedelic therapy legally.
Speaker 1:Yeah, if I were ever to go back to school and I and part of me is like God, I wish it was like a nurse, that I could do that, or I wish I went and did therapy like you know but you didn't know.
Speaker 2:Then you're just learning this stuff. Yeah, you know, we're learning this stuff now and I think you're meant to be in the space Eventually there will be a space for, you know, some nobodies like me not a nobody. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:I don't mean like nobody isn't like I'm a nobody. I mean like I don't have a degree in this shit.
Speaker 2:You're not a doctor, you're not a nurse practitioner, you're not a nurse, you're not a therapist.
Speaker 1:I have a PhD in life, okay.
Speaker 2:Well, I have a master's in played and having fun, yes, yes.
Speaker 1:So he took this substance and thought he was dying. He gets home, calls the doctor, she comes over and she's like you're not dying. But he woke up the next day a completely changed person, had a new perspective on life, like had an appreciation for small things, like really just felt like holy shit, I just discovered something profound. So he started reaching out to doctors and psychiatrists and they started doing research. And this is again. This is in the 1940s, 1940s and 50s.
Speaker 1:So this is not a new wave of it is a new wave but, like this is not the first time psychedelics have had a wave of interest. So doctors all over started using this in psychiatry. They started actually doing research and clinical trials and they did, you know, psychedelic psychotherapy with a lot of people and for people with PTSD, for people who had mental health issues, for alcoholics, and they were finding such profound results. Here's where it got really dark and tricky. A lot of people were like, oh, this is such a powerful substance I could use this for a weapon, as a weapon. So government started getting ahold of it.
Speaker 2:I was going to say are you going to start bringing up the government? Speaking of like people who treat people terribly? Yes, Speaking of like people who absolutely treat people terribly.
Speaker 1:Yes, who experiment on people without them?
Speaker 2:knowing about people. Yeah, a hundred percent.
Speaker 1:The government Exactly. So the government gets a hold of it. And I'm talking to other countries. And so the U? S is like fuck, all these countries are coming like are using LSD to like do mind control and dah dah, dah. So we need to get on this. To like do mind control and da da, da. So we need to get on this. So the us this is how it got over to the us. The cia brought it to the us. The fucking cia brought it like it didn't like get here on ship for you know, because people were like passing it back and forth, like isn't that how the unabomber came about?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and we'll get into that.
Speaker 1:Okay, yes, so fucking crazy, so crazy, so the government starts using it and they're doing like MKUltra experiments. And let me be very clear LSD is powerful, so are other psychedelics powerful, so are other psychedelics. And this is why set and setting are so important, because, depending on the intention behind, why and how you're doing it, the results can be life-changing in a good way or life-changing in a bad way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so the cia started this program called mk ultra and they were actually they were find like use it as like a truth serum type situation, but in order to use it on people they couldn't tell them they were using it. It's really fucked up, like they would use it on prisoners, so they were drugging them without their knowledge. They were, and a lot of people that they were doing this on were like drug addicts anyway. So they were like, well, who's going to care if they die? And who's?
Speaker 2:going to believe them, wasn't it a lot of the?
Speaker 1:black community. Yeah, there was like a prison in Kentucky actually where they experimented on prisoners and they really just didn't have a choice and they were like fed LSD for days and days and days and days straight. So wrong dosing, Wrong, not even wrong dosing.
Speaker 1:It was like what they were trying to do, but like what they were essentially trying to do is wipe their brains. So they were fucking mind torturing these people to wipe their brains clean and then put in what they wanted to put in. It's real fucked up. And the guy who was the head to wipe their brains clean and then put in what they wanted to put in it's real fucked up. And the guy who was the head and I don't know all the details about MKUltra. There's actually a really good podcast and I'll recommend it in a minute. The guy who was in charge of MKUltra hired this like Nazi doctors to help him experiment on people, and japanese doctors who were very big into, like, torturing people so what did they do?
Speaker 1:well, and some of the things that they would do like this well, I don't want to get into that, like it's fucking dark, but like, okay, you know these prisoners, these black prisoners that they would use, like they knew they were being drugged but like kind of didn't have a fucking choice. Um, another thing that they would do is they would hire hookers to lure men into apartments and give them acid and they would have a two-way mirror and like they would watch what, like what happened. It's real fucked up. So, whoa, um, there is a connection to the unabomber and mk ultra and there's actually like one of those myths about people falling out of 10-story buildings yeah that came from mk ultra too.
Speaker 1:somebody committed suicide and every the story was like, oh my God, he did LSD and thought he could fly and jumped out of a building. Like no, actually he was being experimented on and wanted to end his life. Like it's real fucked up. So the Unabomber was one of those people from heart that he was like a Harvard graduate and they were like doing real fucked up shit to him. And I don't want to get like into that situation. But in his manifesto, like he was talking about like the torture, nobody ever talked about that. When that happened, no, um, they weren't like oh, and, by the way, he was just vilified. The government really fucked him up and nobody believed him. The government really fucked him up and nobody believed him.
Speaker 2:Now is this a myth, but is Charles Manson part of that? That?
Speaker 1:is a myth that has not been proven. There are connections to him and some of the people from MK Ultra. The podcast I'm going to recommend because I don't want to go too far into this this isn't what I wanted to do or make this a part of the podcast is Armchair Experts, dax Shepard, and if you just go in there and search MKUltra, like it is a fascinating episode, like really it's one of those conspiracy theories that actually wasn't a conspiracy. Like there's proof like this was all done in the us, um, and there's proof of a lot of the stuff. They, whenever they were shut down, whenever this, uh, mk ultra shut down, they like started shredding papers and started a fire but there were like boxes of stuff that didn't get destroyed.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, they were experimenting on kids and shit. Like it's fucking kids, it's horrible and the government knew they set it up, but it's kind of like the Marshall Islands it's. I mean, it's not kind of like it, but like you know the things that the government does with no remorse and think the way that they're like well, we'll just experiment on them. They'll never know, like how they were. Like Explain a little bit, like about what they were doing to the Marshall Islands.
Speaker 2:So in the 40s and 50s, the government did the same time.
Speaker 2:Oh God, yeah, they did nuclear testing on the island and the natives did not know about it, and so I think they let off. It was over the course of 12 years. So fucked up, like yeah, them like yeah. And so you know again, at that time they were very indigenous and not americanized at all. And so you're on an island. It's in between hawaii and australia and it's never snowed there before, so white particles are falling from the sky and they're taking it, thinking it's snow, and they're rubbing it on their skin, eating it. Oh my god, and because of that it made our people very, very sick cancer.
Speaker 1:Um, I mean, that's still happening, like from some of the radiation, right? Oh yeah, because so they.
Speaker 2:They did that on purpose to see how high levels of radiation would impact people, so they really they used us as experiments. Um, and so women would have like jellyfish babies, where they would have a baby and have no bones translucent, translucent skin. I mean, it was just like this blob. Fun fact is, the show SpongeBob SquarePants is based on bikini, so Bikini Atoll is where they did it, and Bikini Atoll in 2024 is still too toxic of an island to live on. And so SpongeBob SquarePants it's about the mutated sea life in the Marshall.
Speaker 1:Islands. What? Yes, shut the fuck up. Yeah, yeah, did not know that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so now there's this cement dome. They had all this like toxic waste and then they just covered it with the cement dome and Marshallese people are like like this could erupt at any minute, like get this out of here. And the US government is like your land, your problem, oh my.
Speaker 2:God, and it's like no, but you invaded our land. You made islands too toxic to live on. You made our people sick. You took advantage of people who are known to be very kind and giving and exploited them. What's and we don't learn about? Mk I was we don't learn about just the marshall islands in history.
Speaker 2:Nowhere in history did we learn that, nowhere and I am embarrassed to say this and I still I would love someone who is marshallese to come on and educate me more about this, because there's still a lot that I don't know. But like, even growing up I didn't know that about my own country where I was born from.
Speaker 1:It's so wild and I think the most fucked up thing. Well, that's not it's not the most fucked up, but another fucked up thing about that is that, like the government's apology to you was to grant you citizenship. Yeah, so now Marshallese people have US citizenship and it's almost like sorry, we fucked you up here.
Speaker 2:You can come here if you want. Well, and they got a settlement, but it only went to people that had that were rich on the island. But the thing is and then that's another another topic too it's like island life is very different than the American way. So, yes, people come here to have a better life, but then it's really hard to adjust to this culture and the way that we do things, and that's its own struggle in itself. Yeah, I can't, and you know a lot of, I think, marshallese people are looked down on because of the way that we live. It's not the American way, but you know.
Speaker 1:Fuck the American way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. So that's a whole. We could get another episode on that, I know. I know that would be a really good episode.
Speaker 1:I know I'm trying If you could find someone to talk about that, to go into more detail about that. So, anyway, enough about like the government's play in this Um, because, again, that could be an entire episode on its own and I am not well enough prepared to speak on it. So find the armchair expert, dax Shepard's podcast. Search MK ultra. There's only one about it and you're going to like shit your pants about it and you're going to like shit your pants. It's so good, um, okay, so, uh, some. I'm going to name some of the big players in LSD. Um, after like the forties and fifties, it started kind of leaking its way into society and it wasn't just in the hands of researchers or psychiatrists or doctors anymore and again, even with the CIA like they weren't the only ones with their hands on this, by the way, like impalement went on for like decades. Like it's wild how long it went on.
Speaker 2:In the 60s and 70s.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, so I'm going to go over some of the big, big, big like players who really made a name for LSD Ken Kesey. He was actually the author of One. Flew Over the Cuckoo's.
Speaker 2:Nest. Ok, I was like I have no idea who that is, but I do know.
Speaker 1:And he wrote that book before he was into this stuff. Ok, he the book is based. I've never read the book, but I know that a lot of like people have to read it in high school and stuff. I think my husband said he it was one of those books he had to read. I never had to read it, um, but the book is written. It's a fictional book but it's written about a psychiatric patient um, a schizophrenic patient in a psych ward. I'm fucking that up. I'm really sorry, but that was my understanding of it.
Speaker 1:He worked as a nurse's aide in a psych ward, like in real life Ken Kesey did. So he had access to LSD when it was like being used in the clinical trials and the research department like literally opened a drawer one time and found a bottle with 500 LSD tabs and took it out. So he experienced it. And then he started a group called the Mary pranksters where, like, he started like passing it out to friends and they would, um, they had a big giant bus that was like super fucking colorful and they would trap. Their goal was like we're gonna travel across the states to new york, so they're in like california west end. They're gonna travel to new york on this bus and they're gonna like get people to take lsd and they're gonna record it and they're gonna make a movie out of it and it's gonna be really fucking cool.
Speaker 1:There's a book written by tom wolf that's called God. I'm going to forget what it's called. Yeah, I already forgot what it's called and I didn't take a note, but there's, I'll, I'll write it in. Um, there's a book about it where one of the original Mary prankster guys like wrote his about his experiences. It's called like, like the experience whatever, the acid test, the acid test or something. What they would do is they would have these parties called the acid test and, um, they would invite people and you paid like a dollar at the door and they would give you acid and they had a band and it would just be this entire whole fucking experience. You go into this like party and you're like having the fucking time of your life. One of those bands was called the Warlocks. The Warlocks would later be the Grateful Dead.
Speaker 2:Oh, my God.
Speaker 1:They changed their name because there was another band that went by, the Warlocks, and they were like. They were literally just like a small band in California, in the Bay Area, like they had a big local following. Band that went by, the warlocks, and they were like, they were literally just like a small band in california, in the bay area, like they had a big local following. I'm gonna just say this before I forget. But there were a group of kids in the 60s who, um, would meet outside of school every day at 4, 20, over by like the wall at the end of school and they would smoke weed. They were like their groupies, they were the warlocks groupies and they were always at their shows. And so 420 just kind of like got circulated into this little group of people and they would be like who's 420, you know, and they'd start toking up and so that's how the grateful dead is connected to 420 oh and 419, you're gonna be blown even further because it gets so much bigger than that.
Speaker 1:The story like walls off. Okay, so, um, ken keezy has this group of the merry pranksters, and actually one of, like the founding members of the mary pranksters, ended up marrying the grateful dead um lead singer jerry garcia. Oh, okay, maybe he was the lead guitarist, I don't fucking know.
Speaker 1:But the biggest name and yeah I probably did, but they ended up getting married eventually, um, but I just thought that was cool because she was part of the Mary pranksters. They were part of, you know, the band that small started, so small, doing these acid tests. Are is. Are they still alive? Um, not, jerry Garcia, I know that one for sure. I don't know. Okay, honestly, that's how bad I am at this. Like, I'm probably going to start listening to the grateful dead after this. Yeah, it's like listen, I've been doing research for days. I didn't have time, but I was like I need to start listening to them.
Speaker 1:Um, okay, so the Mary pranksters the thing is in the West, in California, they were really really big about like having fun and being weird and like letting loose and like there was nothing that like police would pull them over every now and then, but there was really nothing they could do because lsd wasn't illegal. Like it was kind of this weird gray area where they're like, oh my god, these fucking hippies, you know, but they were all like free and like this is like think, like the hippies and the woodstock era, like this is what this group of merry pranksters was, and they traveled for like a decade before ken kesey finally, like I, can only imagine the shit that was going on in that bus.
Speaker 2:Oh right, like like I'm just gonna say like the orgies and just like shit like that.
Speaker 1:I don't know if that was happening. I don't know. I mean, we're not talking about an IndyMA group here, I just feel like, but I feel like, like I don't know, Psychedelics, hippies free spirit, you might be right.
Speaker 1:So what's interesting is okay. So the biggest producer of LSD at that time um around like 1958, um Sandoz, which is like that original Swiss company. That was like producing um LSD as a medicine. The patent ran out, they started to see how much it was being used for bad and so they stopped producing it. Oh shit. So when the patent ran out and and sando stopped producing it, um, it started going underground.
Speaker 1:Owlsley this is where it gets interesting. Um owlsley stanley he was the sound engineer for the grateful dead. Okay was like I'm to figure out how to make it. So he spent weeks in a fucking library reading up on how to make LSD the purest LSD and he started making it. So like, if you were around in the 60s and you were doing LSD, there was a big, big chance that what you were taking was made by Owsley Damn yeah. So that's like wild to me. He was the sound engineer for the Grateful Dead. He was one of the best LSD chemists in the Bay Area and there were people who wanted to like apprentice under him. That's how good he was.
Speaker 1:So one of the documentaries that I'm going to recommend is the Sunshine Makers. It's these two guys who one of them his name is Nick Scully, and then there's like or Tim Scully and Nick Sand. So Tim Scully was, like I want to apprentice under you, dude, I want to learn how to make this. And so he worked with him, learned how to make it. They made it for a long time. And the he worked with him, learned how to make it. They made it for a long time. And the really cool thing about like the people who are making it, they were like pretty much giving this shit out for free. They weren't trying to do it to make money. There wasn't like a big pharma price tag on it. They were literally just trying to change the world.
Speaker 1:So the Sunshine Makers is about Tim Scully and Nick Sand and their story is fucking unbelievably fascinating. Like you see this guy at the beginning of the documentary and he's like doing naked yoga and he's like this older, like in his 80s, fat guy and he's just doesn't give a fuck. And he's like all about love and light and I'm like what kind of drugs do you know that produce that kind of person? Like you're not doing heroin or meth, and being like this is going to change the world. Like you do that and you're like, oh, I'm fucked. Well, there goes my life. You know, like this is the type of drug where you meet people like who were in that 60s and 70s era and you're like they're just a great human, like how did that happen? Oh, it's the drugs.
Speaker 2:That's how I felt about mushrooms. The first time I did mushrooms, I was like why aren't more people talking about this? Why Like? Why? Why is this?
Speaker 1:Why are we being warned about this? Yeah?
Speaker 2:Like, why? Why is this? Why are we being warned about this? Yeah, like I feel so light and at peace right now.
Speaker 1:Right, what the fuck? Right? So I just think that their story is fascinating too, and you know these people who did it. They knew that they were taking a big risk, especially being underground, especially because it also played a huge role in the counterculture movement. I cannot talk about this without talking about Timothy Leary. So, while this is happening in the West, in California, in the East there is Timothy Leary, richard Alpert and who else, who else? I don't fucking remember who else, but it's on this book Ralph Metzner, okay. Okay, so they were psychiatrists at Harvard. Okay, so they're around the same time that this is happening in the West, they're realizing the, the psychological benefits of lsd, and they start giving it to people.
Speaker 1:Their story, though, is very different, and you're going to find some similarities in the culture like a more like clinical, like even more okay, spiritual, ceremonial, like they like timothy leary is the person who coined like set and setting Gotcha they talk so much about, like who you do it with and how you do it is going to be the biggest factor in the experience, or in the experience that you have, in the lessons that you get out of it. It's I heard this, but I don't know how true this is so, like a typical dose of LSD and and this, this is this might be where I get it fucked up or get it wrong, but it's between like 50 and 200 micrograms so it's so so so small.
Speaker 1:It's a small small amount. Um, the mary pranksters were doing like 25 micrograms, probably a little bit, probably more than that. Um, timothy leary and his crew, they're like no, a thousand micrograms. So they're like going deep into their subconscious. You know, like working on their shit.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they're not at a concert serious about it.
Speaker 1:Um, and so there was this like clash between like no, this is how you do it. It it's about freedom and fun, and you know this both, though there were some overlaps in how they like felt about how it was working. They were like fuck society, fuck rules. You know both of them were saying this, and Timothy Leary is the same person who also coined the term tune in, turn in and drop out, and it wasn't necessarily about like dropping out of school. It was more like hey, drop out of these societal norms. And he was like school is a scam, which it is. It is like that's a whole nother episode.
Speaker 2:I love how we still agree with him. How many years later, right, and then there's probably a lot of people who do like you know.
Speaker 1:I wouldn't have said that five years ago. I'd be like no, all my kids are going to college and now I'm like college is a fucking scam and school is literally just here, to create busy bodies and workers and you know, it's burnout. I probably think that because I've done psychedelics, so all of this is in like the late 60s. Okay, so Timothy Leary and Richard Alpert which, by the way, I love the Richard Alpert story, because have you ever heard of Ram Dass? Yes, that's Richard Alpert, same guy, he.
Speaker 2:Wait, Richard Alpert is Ram Dass.
Speaker 1:Yes. So he had such a profound experience with LSD he was like there's got to be a way to obtain this enlightenment, this feeling, without the drugs. So his story is different than Timothy Leary's. Timothy Leary became like the poster child for like LSD rebels, like he was arrested, spent life in prison. You know, just crazy, crazy fucking story. He was hated by every like stand, you know, upstanding American citizen Like he's ruining our culture. Because he started this whole movement against the Vietnam war. And it wasn't just him, it was like a mixture of like all of these, like little subcultures of fuck the system, love and light, like fuck the war, you know. But he became the poster child for it because he's so charismatic. But he became the poster child for it because he's so charismatic. And I mean he was a leader but he led this movement in the East.
Speaker 1:Richard Alpert was like I'm going to move to India and study under monks, and he did. He spent decades india working on finding this enlightenment without the use of drugs. Is that how he turned into ram das? Yes, he changed his name to ram das. He's written several books. There's several documentaries about him becoming um, or be here now is one of them um, I have a couple of them back there and I'm blanking on the names of the other ones, but they're, they're really good books. Like he was, like such a enlightened presence, like his words. The playlist that I gave you have you listened to it yet?
Speaker 2:Oh, the psychedelic playlist. I sat for somebody.
Speaker 1:Did they listen to it?
Speaker 2:Yes, the last song. I have not personally listened to it, did you?
Speaker 1:get to the last song where he's, where there's a voice that's Ram Dass. Yeah, he became this like spiritual enlightened guru. Okay, and I hate using the word enlightened, because we're all continuously becoming more enlightened, but there is no like I, am you reach?
Speaker 2:that it's like healed. Yes, yes, it's like we're always on a field, yeah, like we're always healed, right.
Speaker 1:Even when you think you've healed something.
Speaker 2:There's still more work to do.
Speaker 1:You probably have it, yeah, Like you've worked through it a lot, but it still might show up in some ways. And to me, healing is like moving through those in a little bit more of a graceful way and having more awareness around those and anyway, so, um, they I really like. There's this guy. His name is Hamilton Morris. He is the um, the guy who has the show Hamilton's Pharmacopia, oh yeah, On Apple TV or might be even Hulu.
Speaker 1:Now His dad was like a documentary there's a word for it Documentarian, I don't know what it is, but his dad was a famous like documentary guy and so he started doing all these documentaries, little mini series like docu series about substances. And what I really like about his show Hamilton's Pharmacopia which we have linked on our website, by the way, in our resources is he talks about the science of the drug and then he talks about, like, the metaphysical side of the drug and like the effects that it has on people, and then sometimes at the end he experiences the drug himself and he talks about it. Okay, so I really like his episodes. He has some on LSD and then sometimes at the end he experiences the drug himself and he talks about it, shit Okay.
Speaker 1:So I really like his episodes. He has some on LSD, he has them on mescaline, he has them on like literally every psychedelic substance you could imagine. He has all these little series on it. One of the things that he said about like this clashing of like no, it's this way. And love and light and be weird and get naked, and then they're like no, it needs to be done this way. How much does that remind you of the way that it is today? Like you shouldn't be doing it at music festivals. It needs to be.
Speaker 2:You need to be so serious about it. Well, it kind of reminds me of, like the flack we get yeah, because it's like. No, you can't be psychonauts because you don't look like this. No, you can't be psychonauts because you don't fit in this box. Oh, I bet, by the looks of you, you haven't done five grams or like, like, and I'm like aren't we on the same team?
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, that's kind of like this clashing of like this is how it needs to be done. No, this is how it needs to be done. Why can't it be done both ways, right? So Hamilton Morris the way he explains it is, I love it. He was just like it's kind of like musical taste. And he says I would never do LSD in an uncontrolled environment, I would never do it at a concert, I would never do it at a music festival. I prefer it solo, introspective, ceremonial. I have never done it that way, like me personally. So he was like it's just about like it's musical taste. There's no right way or wrong way, but you may have a different experience with one versus the other. Yeah, so I've said before like I've done LSD three times now, like in larger doses. Can I ask you what your dose was I'm gonna be honest, I don't fucking know.
Speaker 1:Okay, like when you have these tabs, like there's like a certain amount on each tab and I don't know the amount. I was that like you're going against our old rules I know, I know, I mean, I know that like you're going against our own rules. I know, I know, I mean, I know that like it's the dose that like is like a single dose.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:But um, so I know that it's safe and I'm not going to take two tabs. No, I did that one time, though we can talk about that later. Um, my bad.
Speaker 2:I went against our own rules.
Speaker 1:I'm an experimenter and I'm telling you I fucked up, but it turned out to not be so bad. So I don't even like to say it was a fuck up. It was like it worked out. But yeah, so like you take a tab and you're fucked up for like 12, 14 hours. I hate saying fucked up because it's like nobody would know we're on acid. And do you remember the last time I did it was? It was four of us at a cabin and we took it at like two or three o'clock and like weeks later, one of the people that was on that was on this trip with us. She was like oh my god, I totally forgot to ask you how was the LSD? And I was like we were on it the whole time. Like she thought we took it after they went to bed and I was like no, we were, we were on it the whole time.
Speaker 1:Oh my god, how did she not know? Because you don't seem like you're on a drug.
Speaker 2:You're right, but you just think that you guys would be like talking about it.
Speaker 1:I don't know I know, I know, I know well, they were on mushrooms so it's like maybe they like weren't paying attention to what we were doing, because they're yeah Anyway, so it's just interesting.
Speaker 2:Well, what do you always say? You always say okay, so mushrooms feel like home. Mdma is love, ayahuasca is mother, lsd is your inner child.
Speaker 1:Play it's play, it's fun. And again, I will say that is based on my experiences and who I was doing it with. I was never doing it to do like a heroic journey. I don't even know if there are heroic journeys in lsd, but that's probably what timothy leary and his crew were doing, you know like or the girl who started that cocaine all right, or thought she was snorting the cocaine.
Speaker 2:She had a fucking experience.
Speaker 1:And I mean, here's the thing Like she was like the girl who did that much, was like puking for 12 hours like nonstop, and to somebody who's watching that you're like, oh God, they're dying. But to someone who is an experienced psychonaut you're like, oh, she's just purging, she's just having an ego death, she's just really getting rid of all the stuff in her body that she's poisoned it with.
Speaker 2:When I went to the hair salon yesterday, I was talking about ayahuasca and I was saying how I like I was the first one to throw up. And then I was the one who just kept throwing up and they were like oh God, that sounds terrible. And I was like, no, I was just purging, it was fine. I was purging the fact that, like that's the, that sounds terrible. And I was like, no, I was just purging, it was fine.
Speaker 1:I was purging the fact that, like that's the thing that scares people from doing it, they're like I don't want to puke.
Speaker 2:Like what? And you know what I say I'm like, but it's not like regular puking, it's not.
Speaker 1:It's because it's not, it's like when you're regular puking you're like this is the worst, but like ayahuasca, puking is like like you open your mouth and it comes out and you feel like I needed that.
Speaker 2:Literally you're like that wasn't that bad, literally yeah. Like you open your mouth and it just falls out. Also random, weird fact, it doesn't make your breath smell like you don't you don't puke breath. Yeah, yeah, and I'm like what the fuck? I just like puked like 17 times within the last two hours.
Speaker 1:And my breath doesn't smell. Can I make an assumption as to why? Sure, it might be because of all the fasting and shit that we did, okay, and the diet that we followed, probably Like we didn't have a lot of stuff in our system that needed to be broken down. Possibly that makes sense. Okay, could just be the drug, right, but that's just an assumption that I literally just like. Maybe that's why it doesn't come out. It's like, literally just like stomach acid. I just snorted a little bit.
Speaker 1:Okay, let me go over this and make sure I'm not missing anything, cause I'm really trying to do this in like a way that I'm not reading and I'm just trying to go by memory. Um, okay, another, so let's take it back a little bit. Um, well, first off, let me just say in the in 1970, richard Nixon like created the schedule one act, which is, or, he didn't create it, but he put all these drugs on the Schedule I Act because he was like they're ruining our culture and it's really because he was trying to get people to go to Vietnam, yeah, and people were dropping out of wanting to go and fighting against the war.
Speaker 2:It's so interesting to me. I feel like there are a lot of people who loved Nixon.
Speaker 1:Who Like boomers yeah yeah no offense, some of you are cool, some of you were part of that counterculture and we love you for sorry, but now I'm like yeah actually yeah, now that you say that. And when I say boomer, I don't mean that in like a negative way, like I'm a millennial, like it's just a fact like I'm a fucking millennial.
Speaker 2:I'm like yeah, there wasn't like a gen z or millennial that who?
Speaker 1:who? Christine boomers? Oh yeah, yeah, that's you, um, so I am going to rewind a little bit. Um, because during all of this there is aldex huxley. He wrote brave new world in 1932, which was like a big, like um, um, a big thing. It's super fucking famous anyway. And then he wrote the doors of perception in 1954. And that book is one speaking about his experience with, like mescaline and peyote and DM or not DMT, well, maybe DMT, I don't know, I haven't read the book, but he's talking about his experience with psychedelics.
Speaker 1:Bill Wilson oh, here we go, that's where he comes in, ok, ok, side note, in my little rabbit hole of Bill Wilson, I came across some really negative things about him and the 13th step. I never knew what the 13th step was, but I've heard people talk about it. Um, and it's really kind of fucked up. It's where, like um, after somebody finishes the 12 steps, they get this like ego power trip and they take advantage of like women who are like starting out. So it's like really fucked up. But AA was like written for men, like it was like made for men, built by men, a very patriarchal, like man led group, and so there's a lot of negative stuff about Bill Wilson out there. Gotcha, that doesn't take away from all the good that he has done. Necessary Well, I mean it kind of fucking does, and it doesn't. You know what I'm saying. Like, aa is still he. He still did good things.
Speaker 2:He still did good things.
Speaker 1:Yes, um, so this is interesting. So Bill Wilson met um, alex Huxley was reading about LSD. Um, alex Huxley was reading about LSD. This is like 20 years after AA was a thing, by the way, like he started AA 20 years prior to his first LSD experience. He was one of the founding members. One of the other founding member was, like, very, very, very religious and Bill Wilson wasn't. He was spiritual, but that is because he had this experience before he got sober with, like, bella Donna. It was like at a rehab center back in the thirties, which is why does that sound familiar? It's not something that's used anymore. It was. It was a hallucinogen that they used to use for alcoholics. He had this experience on it and he had this vision of like people coming together around the world and getting sober and that's essentially what got him sober, but it's not what kept him sober.
Speaker 1:So I'm going to go into a little bit of the Bill Wilson stuff, all right, going to go into a little bit of the bill wilson stuff, um, all right. So after all this stuff about lsd started coming out and aldix huxley wrote his book, and then there's like another um, who else, uh, god, I can't remember. Anyway, there's somebody else that I I'm blanking on their name, but they were in conversation with um Bill Wilson and he came to believe that LSD could potentially help cynical alcoholics. He was like following up and learning more about their studies with and their research with alcoholics and LSD and was like interested in it. But um was still very hesitant. So it said he thought that it could maybe help cynical alcoholics achieve a spiritual awakening.
Speaker 1:And if you are not familiar with the 12 steps, they say that like, once you get through all the steps you have a spiritual awakening. And I used to I've said this in an episode before but that used to really bother me. To really bother me. Like my husband is in a, like in he's not religious about it, like a lot of people are, but like, from what I understand of it, I used to be like, so you're telling me you just get to a step and have a spiritual awakening. No, that doesn't. That's not how that works. Like that doesn't make sense to me. Like something has to provoke that Like some. That has to be, that has to come on by something. Some people do wake up and they're like holy shit, right, nothing is as it seems, but like every now and then it's like some type of catastrophe for your event or something. Hallucinogen, yeah, that comes along and pushes you on this path to like awakening, all right.
Speaker 1:So he thought initially that the substance could help others, but he was afraid to bring it to people because of their idea that, like how could a drug possibly help drug addicts not be drug addicts anymore? So he was like skeptical. But then he went and tried it for the first time in 1956 at a VA hospital. Oh wow. After his first experience he was like OK.
Speaker 1:So he used to think that it would be something that would terrify drinkers into getting sober, which is essentially what Bella Donna did for him back in the 30s. It like basically terrified him into getting sober. So he did, so that's what he. He was just like well, maybe LSD works the same way. And after his first experience he was like oh well, maybe it's insight, not terror, because he felt like he got more insight from it. I'm not reading this whole thing, by the way. I have things highlighted, so this is what he said in a letter that he wrote. I am certain that the LSD experiment has helped me very much. I find myself with a heightened color perception and an appreciation of beauty almost destroyed by my years of depression.
Speaker 2:Wow.
Speaker 1:Humphrey Osmond, that's the other name. So Humphrey Osmond was a British psychiatrist who actually coined the term psychedelic. Psychedelic didn't have a name before. He was one of those psychiatrists who was working in the clinical research and again, this is like in the 50s and 60s, so before it was schedule one. Psychedelic psyche is mind. Um, psychedelic psyche is mind, and he used the word delos, which means mind altering or alter. Explore, oh god, exploration, yeah, thank you. So psychedelic is just like an exploration of the mind. What did they say? Hang on, I have notes everywhere. Oh my god, I'm so sorry you guys.
Speaker 1:There's no fucking way I could remember this, okay. So aldix huxley and osmond humphrey osmond. They wrote letters back and forth and in some of these letters they found um, um. So osmond came up with the word psychedelic. Oh yeah, delos is to like manifest or reveal um. And huxley wrote back in the letter. He was just like to fathom hell or sore angelic, just take a pinch of psychedelic. So that was like a big term used in psychedelics too. Anyway, he was not, by the way, humphrey osmond was not a proponent of it being used in the counterculture, like when that started happening, he was just like I don't want to do this anymore okay so he was really big on this should be used in psychiatry, in clinical settings.
Speaker 1:Like this should not be out in the public for public use and distribution. Like you guys are gonna fuck this up and we kind of did for a long time. So, um, he was like bill wilson was worried about the way that people would like take him if they knew that he was doing all of these lsd, um, not experiments, but he was part of the experiment. He was doing these on a regular basis. It wasn't like a one and done thing, um. But he wrote in a letter um, alcoholics get to the point in the program where they need a spiritual experience but not all of them are able to have one. So he noticed within the groups of AA and again, this is 20 years later, so it's got a very, very, very big community.
Speaker 1:At this point. If you went into AA atheist, like, it was very hard to achieve that like belief in a higher power, a lot of people, because they were religious, already had that instilled in them, you know. So they did believe in God. But if you were an atheist like, could you imagine like walking in? That's why so many people are turned away from aa, because they're like it's too religious for me and I'm like, but it's not.
Speaker 1:It's spiritual, it's different because they talk about, like, believing in god and having a higher power.
Speaker 1:Um, and if you're not spiritual or religious, right you're gonna hear that doesn't register and be like so god, I don't fucking believe in god, you know right, um. Uh, so he actually wrote letters defending his drug use and there were several people who followed him into this like little subculture of aa where they were using lsd to like have these spiritual experiences and it wasn't like done, all the fucking time they weren't using it as a drug. You know, um, but in 1958, he defended his drug use in a long letter but soon afterwards removed himself from the group. Oh my God, I didn't know that. I did not know that. It says he removed himself from the AA governing body to be free to do the experiments.
Speaker 1:Wow, there is an anonymous author who wrote his official biography and it's and he wrote about. I wonder who wrote that? That's always like, like, when you have an anonymous author of a biography, it's like how do you know that that person really? Yeah, yeah, I mean I, I don't know anyway, the. He wrote, um, that wilson felt like lsd helped him eliminate many barriers erected by the self or ego that stand in the way of one's direct experiences of the cosmos and of god. He thought he might have found something that could make a big difference to the lives of many who still suffered. All right, that's all about.
Speaker 2:Bill.
Speaker 1:Wilson, interesting, I know you.
Speaker 2:I love this right now. Okay, so then we had two pins. Okay, did we get them out? I don't think so. Okay, first one LSD and microdosing. Yes, lsd and microdosing yes. Now she's got a book.
Speaker 1:Okay. Why does microdosing LSD help somebody who has ADHD and struggles or struggles with focus? I really think it's about like slowing your mind down enough to focus. Like you've used it, you've microdosed LSD. I prefer. I'm like a very emotional person and so are you like. I'm not saying that you're not, but like because I'm a manifester, like I am very emotionally and heart led.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Like I don't have all those like gut instincts follow my heart. So, like for me, I tend to gravitate. It's kind of like with my music. Like I gravitate towards heartfelt stuff. I gravitate towards things I can feel at an emotion, at a highly emotional level. Um, so I prefer microdosing mushrooms, I don't know why. Yeah, I mean, that's probably why that would be my take on why. Um, you and then let me just say this, like I probably do have undiagnosed ADHD. They don't diagnose ADD anymore, and I used to say I'm ADD, I'm not ADHD, but they don't diagnose that anymore. There's like either hyperactive ADHD or non-hyperactive ADHD, which doesn't fucking make sense to me. But whatever You're more of the ADHD, I feel like it works for you a little bit more than it does for me. Yeah, I can get into my rabbit holes and I stay in them. Yeah, I don't need help staying in them. Right, you probably do.
Speaker 2:Well, it's just not how I learn, learn. Yeah, I find it to be incredibly boring even when it's something that you're fascinated with no, but it's just like I like learning through, like living and talking and sitting is just a struggle for me anyways, that might be why you love of reality tv so much.
Speaker 1:Why? Because it's like fun to watch the psychology, yeah, play out in real time.
Speaker 2:You're watching it like people watch hamilton and learn about the history yeah, oh my god, yeah, hence why I have learned so much just from talking to you than from reading any book about psychedelics. Ah yeah, that makes a lot of sense. It makes a lot of sense. I get very distracted by outside things. I'm like, oh, a squirrel. Oh, look at that, it's a bug on the wall.
Speaker 1:So I have a really bad habit of starting books and not finishing them, depending on how heavy they are and how easy they are to read, like I will put it down and then I'll be like, okay, that's, that's a lot of information to process and absorb, and I'll be like I'll come back to it and then I forget, and then I go move on to another book and I'm like that's a lot to absorb and I do absorb this information, but it's just a lot. So this is a really good book. Islet Waldman a really good day. How microdosing made a mega difference in my mood, my marriage and my life. Um, I started this book and never finished it, but she talks about her experience as a mom microdosing LSD. So this is like probably a game changer book. She actually brings up um Bill Wilson and AA in this book too, so it's actually a really, really good. Um, this is a really good book If anybody's interested in microdosing LSD.
Speaker 1:As far as sourcing, I don't know what to tell you. That's a hard one. Good luck. Yeah, find the weirdest person you know, so us locally. Find the weirdest person you know, so us locally. Find the weirdest person you know in your area. Um, another book that I was going to talk about is a book that timothy leary, ralph metzner and richard alpert wrote. Those are like the harvard, the harvard group, the intellectual group. They wrote the Psychedelic Experience. It's a manual based on the Tibetan Book of the Dead. This is a good one and Acid Dreams the Complete Social History of LSD, the CIA, the 60s and beyond. This book is fucking fascinating too, and this is another one that I started.
Speaker 2:And didn't finish. Yeah, is your the story of your life? I'm a manifester, I know that's what I do. That's why it's the story of your life. It's literally what I do, okay. So, going back, yeah, your personal experiences with lsd. So obviously there has been one time where you took two tabs and well, let me start with the first one.
Speaker 1:First, my first lsd experience came like probably two months after my first heroic mushroom journey. Oh shit, because once that happened and correct me if I'm wrong I feel like a lot of people get like this once they have this experience. Maybe some don't, but like, maybe it's the three, five in me, the experimenter, who's like once that happened, I was like, oh my God, what else is there? Like I swear to God that first year, my first mushroom experience was June of 2020. And before the end of 2020, I had done MDMA, lsd, like I was like on one. I was like I'm going to do this, I'm going to do, and it was also during COVID.
Speaker 2:So I'm like what else?
Speaker 1:am I going to do?
Speaker 2:Well, maybe not. I was like, maybe I did.
Speaker 1:No, you kind of did in your own way yeah.
Speaker 1:Like you've experimented with things that I haven't. Yes, I have, yes, you have. So you know there's. There's this like something that happens when you rewire your brain with a psychedelic, where you're like what else is there, what else can I learn, what else can I experience? So, yeah, within two months I was like I want to do acid. Who's down, who's doing this with me? And so I acquired a group of girlfriends. I could probably say Sarah's name, like I feel like she's talked about it before Her and I, like we're best friends. We got a little group together I don't want to say the other people's names and I was all in.
Speaker 1:I was like, okay, now, how do I do this safely? We're going to go to a cabin in the woods. Do we need a trip sitter? And I'd also, at the time, been watching working moms. Did you ever watch that? It's like a show on Netflix, it's hilarious. But there was an episode where they all did acid in the woods and they are like lost and they get arrested. And I'm like every movie you ever see where somebody is on a psychedelic, something bad is usually happening. Yeah, they like vilify it. Yeah. So I was like, well, we might get lost. Like so we need it. We need a trip sitter to be with us. We might jump out of a window, we might like literally from the sixties it's going to make us go crazy.
Speaker 1:And I think also like Sarah was just like doesn't that fuck with your like spinal fluid? And I was like no, and she, like was like, oh, okay, trusted me immediately because she knew that I had done my prior research. I was like, no, actually, this is what happens. She was like, oh, okay, so she just went along with me, and I love when people trust me like that. Okay, cool, none of you all are Jason Like. Jason is like a skeptic through and through, maybe not so much. Now he's gotten to a point where he trusts me. But like, we'll get to that part in a second. Um, so yeah, we get this group together. We're in a cabin in beria, kentucky. When I say it wasn't a cabin, it was a fucking tree house. There was an outhouse. There was no electricity no, thank you. No running water. We had to use the bathroom in an outhouse. I'm out. It was probably 95 degrees. Why did you guys do that? We just want to be in nature, man.
Speaker 1:Um, I would be so stressed and needing a shower and we also, like we did have a trip sitter, but the, the girl that I was like talking to about doing LSD, was just like you guys aren't going to need a trip sitter. Like I'm going to give you an extra dose because she's probably going to want to do it when she sees you guys aren't going to need a trip sitter. Like I'm going to give you an extra dose because she's probably going to want to do it when she sees you guys on it. And so we had an extra dose just in case.
Speaker 1:She never did so she ended up remaining the trip sitter, although, like the next morning we were like we didn't, we didn't really need her, although I will say, if something had happened, like an accident had happened, like if one of us like fell down and twisted our ankle or broke our leg or something happened, it was very comforting knowing that someone there was sober enough to drive us. Cause we were in the middle of nowhere we're in Berea, kentucky, bfe and no electricity, no cell service like just in case it was nice to have someone you know, but we didn't need her as much as we thought we would. We were like, oh, this is nothing like the TV show, like we're very aware of what we're doing. And that was the thing too. Like the next day she was like telling us like oh my God, and you were doing this and you were doing this, and we're like we know, like we weren't like blackout drunk, we were there.
Speaker 1:Like know, like we weren't like blackout drunk, we were there, like we know it, like we remember every detail of it. It was so fucking cool, like we were just kids playing, like so what like were there visuals?
Speaker 2:what was like?
Speaker 1:yeah being outside like the visuals were very similar to when you're doing mushrooms, like colors are more vibrant. Like you know, you're staring at the bark on a tree and it looks like it's moving a little bit. Like it wasn't like hallucinations. Like you know, you're staring at the bark on a tree and it looks like it's moving a little bit. Like it wasn't like hallucinations, like you would like see something that wasn't there. Right. In a way, it was like you had access to this other dimension that's always there, that you don't get to see with your own eyes. Oh, that's kind of what it felt like, and it also felt like everything we were seeing was like seeing it for the first time and that's why it felt very childlike. Yeah, there was a chicken on the property and Sarah, I think, at one point, was like oh my God, it's a chicken, and we were like oh my God, look at the chicken.
Speaker 2:Like people would have like been, like those girls okay, yeah, it's a chicken, we get it right, right, but we were like, look at it, how cute I'm surprised sarah, knowing sarah and her love of animals, didn't like run to go like did?
Speaker 1:we had pictures of her like the chicken that's literally what she was doing was just like wanting the chicken to come to her. It was just. It was such a fun time and such a memorable experience. We came back then and the next day I was like I want to do that with somebody else, like I want to, I'm going to facilitate that with another group of friends, and I did several. Several months later, I had another group of friends and I was like all right, we're doing LSD this weekend.
Speaker 1:And then my third time doing it was just last summer with Jason, because I am one of those like I want my husband to experience these things too, because I'm like it's not what you thought it was, it's so much more. Um. So finally, we had the opportunity to do it together, and we're at a cabin in Red River Gorge, and this is where I went wrong. And it was just you two, no, it's four, was four of us. The other couple there did mushrooms, okay, and it's funny, though, because one of the guy that was with us was like oh, I've never done acid, or I've never done LSD, but I've done acid once and I'm like it's the same thing. I should have said that at the beginning. Like LSD, slash acid same thing. I'm like it's the same thing, bro, anyway. Uh.
Speaker 1:So yeah, we did a hike before and I'm just like looking at my like wrist, like I'm like dude, like if we don't do this soon, we're gonna be up all night. Like this is like a 14 hour trip and when you get to the end of it you want nothing more than to sleep and you can't sleep. So you have to be prepared to do a full 14 hour trip with this or you're going to be hurting. So we get back from the hike and it's like three o'clock and I'm like fuck and I say that to my husband I'm just like dude, we should have done this at like 10 o'clock this morning, not like three o'clock. Three o'clock, we're going to be up to like 6am. And he's like I think you underestimate how tired I am and how easily I can fall asleep and I'm like I think you're underestimating the drug and what I am telling you from personal experience you are not going to be able to go to sleep.
Speaker 1:We were up till three or till 6 AM, like literally up till the sun came up. But rewind it a little bit. We took the acid, um. The other two took mushrooms and we were just having fun, um, but about an hour and a half in, he's like I don't feel anything and I was like I don't really feel it either. And he was like let's go do another one. And I was like I don't think we should do that, because rule number one and this is with like gummies, mushrooms, anything, the minute you say you don't feel it and you take another one, you're going to it's going to hit. And I went against my better judgment because he was just like well, I'm taking another one anyway, because maybe this one went bad, maybe it doesn't work anymore. Oh my God, fine. Like, if you're going to do it, I'm going to do it too.
Speaker 2:Like YOLO, let's do it, you are. So ride or die.
Speaker 1:It turned out fine, but it could have been worse. So we both took another tab and literally within a few minutes we feel the first one and I'm like, oh fuck, like in another two hours we're going to be like so fucked up, like this is going to be crazy. But what's interesting now, in the moment I really felt like there's no way nobody would know I'm on acid, really felt like there's no way nobody would know I'm on acid. But the fact that, like literally weeks later, the girl was like, oh yeah, how did? How? Were you guys on LSD? Didn't you guys do that? After we went to bed? And I'm like we were on it the whole time.
Speaker 1:We were with you and hanging out, the song Creep came on by Radiohead and I'm like sobbing. I'm like you've got to change this song. They're like why, what's going on? I'm like just change the song. And in the moment I felt like what he was feeling writing that song, as he was writing it, just feeling like he didn't fit in. He was a loser, like um, like just I was like I can't. I can't feel this. I need to feel happy right now. Yeah, please change the song.
Speaker 1:So that was my like creep story, I don't know. Oh okay, okay, it turned out okay in the end Like we were in a controlled environment. We were in a cabin by ourselves, but towards the end it did get a little dark. There were like, what do you mean by dark? Towards the end it did get a little dark. They were like what do you mean by dark? Um, when it's like one or two o'clock in the morning and it's like dark and quiet, you just start getting these like weird creepy, like a murderer could come in right now. Uh, yeah, and fuck with us and I you know. Just stupid shit like that. Where, like, if I just kept watching and thinking happy thoughts, like we were watching um bonnaroo live, that was really cool. So I'm like, even though I've never done it at a festival, like I watched a festival on it, that was really cool, like it felt like I was there.
Speaker 1:Um should I say the other thing that happened?
Speaker 2:I was going to bring that up. Please say it. I was literally going to be like oh wait, there was something I want to say, but I don't.
Speaker 1:okay, I'll get to that in a second, One of the things that got dark like there are like big skylight windows in our bathroom and in our bedroom, which during the day is not scary at all.
Speaker 1:But at night, like I couldn't even go to the bathroom in our bathroom because I'm like what if somebody is watching me? Which the next morning when we woke up, I was like there was no way they could have. Like that window was so fucking high up they would have had to like climb up on our roof and like that wouldn't like. That's how it fucks with your head a little bit. So it is important to like have.
Speaker 1:Do it early, Do it early. I wish it wouldn't have been three o'clock in the morning when I'm trying to go to sleep and I can't. We're also like we saw headlights driving up the gravel like at 3 am. We're like why the fuck are they driving you know? Just shit like that. Anyway, we have sex on acid. It's the coolest fucking thing that has ever happened to me. Ever, ever, no, probably not ever. It's up there, tmi. But when he finished it felt like fireworks and rainbows went through my body and out of my head. And even he was like did you feel that? And I was like I did, that's what. And I told him I was like this is what it felt like. And he was like that's what it felt like. For me, it was like fucking, like rainbows and unicorns, like just going through my body and like exploding out of my head. That's what it felt like. It was the coolest fucking thing I've ever. It was up there.
Speaker 2:I'm so happy that you had the guts to share that, because I've just been thinking about that the whole time and I'm like there's no way she's going to share that Her vanilla ass. There's no way.
Speaker 1:Can I? This is like the healing thing that came out of it, because, again, I've said I've never, like, had a healing experience, although I want to take that back because I feel like they've all been healing, they just haven't been like the ceremonial, spiritual type of experience.
Speaker 2:And that's kind of what I wanted to say is like, yeah, they were, they were against each other because they were like no, it's this way. No, it's this way. Like we've done the heroic journeys, we've done an ayahuasca ceremony, we've also gone to a concert. All of them have been healing because it's been like connection with myself, connection with other people, connection with the music, connection where I'm at, like laughter and fun and and happiness and so healing.
Speaker 2:Yes, and. And so it goes back to like some of the hate that we get Like. Why does this always have to be so serious and why does this like only you like for you to be a psychedelic or psycho or not. You have to look a certain way or live a certain way, or be a certain way.
Speaker 1:You can't be doing it for fun and you have to be serious, right, right.
Speaker 2:This is only about healing, or to the other people who we know who only do it recreationally. And or to the other people who we know who only do it recreationally. And I'm like man, like there's a lot of stuff you could work through if you actually did it with the intention of like, wanting to like work through some trauma and heal some stuff. Like for me, I'm like there can be balance with all of it and there's, and like I would love to see some more diversity in the psychedelic space, with the people who use it. I would love to have some suburban housewife, while also having someone who's indigenous. Well, like all of it. So then we can all work on connecting with each other.
Speaker 1:But isn't that one of the things that, like, we get out of psychedelics is like learning that there is this balance to everything and you can't have dark without light and you can't have happy without sad? Like everybody is like I just want to be happy and I'm like, ok, but you also have to be sad, right, like you can't bypass this part of it. Right, like there's like a pendulum and there's somewhere in the middle where you have to experience both sides of everything, and that's where the healing lies, is like there is serious, but there's also so much fun in this. Um, I feel like there was something I was going to say to that. Oh, the the healing thing that came out of it for me. I'm going to tell myself a little bit, and I don't know if I've spoke about this before in an episode. Um, you know, most of these psychedelics are like heart openers and mind openers and they really like, they really make you question the things you thought before or the way that you perceive things before you. You really come out of them and you have this like different perspective and you're like, oh, maybe that's why this person did this and oh, I understand that now you know, like there's that to it, but there's also for me personally. Anytime that I've done something like this with my husband and with friends, I come out of it feeling more connected to these people than I did before. There's healing that happens there.
Speaker 1:So the next morning we're driving home. I had been. And actually, now that I think about this, this wasn't last year, this was two years ago I had been saving money for a divorce. Have I told you this? I think so. Yeah, I don't think we've talked about it on here. And it was before my husband got sober. I started putting money aside. I started sending money to my aunt, um, to keep for me to prepare for getting a divorce. When he got sober and when divorce came off the table, I had a lot of money saved up and I was like, fuck, what am I going to do with this? How am I going to tell him about this? And my aunt said at one point I had someone tell me one time like you can repair but also be prepared. Like you can work on repairing the marriage but also be prepared just in case that doesn't happen.
Speaker 2:Because a lot of people who are in AA there's a high divorce rate.
Speaker 1:right, there's a very high divorce rate.
Speaker 2:A lot of people don't make it out of that first year together, which that's another topic of not you, but something that I've noticed of the people who are getting sober, the partner who wanted them to get sober does not handle. They can't handle them getting sober.
Speaker 1:It's a thing I say this all the time Like I don't they almost would have rather them stayed.
Speaker 1:Well, what I think happens is they they just want you to quit drinking. They don't realize that a lot of your issues didn't just come from alcohol. They came from, like, the alcoholic mentality and the mindset and the coping skills and the lack of coping skills healthy coping skills and like the inability to sit with your feelings and the inability to hold space for other people's feelings, Like there's a lot of moving parts in supporting someone who's trying to get sober. I think for a long time I was just like I just want you to be able to handle your liquor. And then, in his sobriety, I realized like, oh my God, this removed a negative coping skill but also has completely transformed the way we communicate and our relationship. And I can see how some people may not be prepared for that, because a lot of people just think the problem is the other person getting sober. They're the ones with the drinking problem. Right, I had to change too.
Speaker 2:I was just going to say that I feel like if your partner is healing like, you have to heal too, because there's a reason why you were with somebody. There is struggled with that.
Speaker 1:No way we would have survived if I hadn't already been on a healing journey for the last year. There's no way he got sober a year after my first mushroom journey and and after that was very, very difficult. And we didn't have the podcast then. So I'm like there's no way I could have. I was surviving that year. I really was. So I'm happy that when we started it like we were past that first year, yeah, where was I going with that? What was I saying?
Speaker 1:The lesson, oh the lesson for me, so I had been saving money and when I realized that divorce was no longer an option and or that it wasn't like on the table the way that it was before and I will say this, like the first time I ever said I want a divorce before he got sober, the way that he would fucking gaslight me into thinking that there was no way I could, like you can't afford to get a divorce. Like okay, well, I'll keep the house and you're going to live in a two bedroom apartment with three kids, like it really fucked with me. So I felt like I had to start saving money.
Speaker 2:Well, that was abusive.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and he knows. And later, well, I'll tell you about the conversation we had in the car, because it got to a point where I was sitting on a very large amount of money and I called my aunt and I was like I don't know how to tell him about this. He's going to be so mad, and you know how he is with money. So I was like he's going to be so mad when he finds out I've been hiding money. Like I would like just take cash tips and like hide them a little bit, you know, um, or do a service and not put it into the system, but take the money on the side. And I had some clients who like knew that I was like saving for a divorce and it was real fucked up, um.
Speaker 1:but I was like he's going to be so mad. And she was like, well, why don't you use the money for something for the two of you? So that's how my Sedona trip got paid for. But so the next day, after we did acid on the way home, I was like I got to tell you something and I don't know how you're going to take this. But I feel like now is a good time to tell you I have a divorce fund. I have this much money and I don't. I didn't know how to tell you. I've been keeping it from you, but I also haven't been putting money into it for like the last year. I've just been sitting on this amount. I didn't know what to do with it. I didn't know how to bring it to you. I didn't want you to be upset with me.
Speaker 1:And he got real quiet for a minute and he was like okay, like I'm really upset that you were like putting money to the side. It feels very deceitful, but I understand why you feel like you had to do that and I'm sorry that I made you feel that way because I was, I was explaining to. I was like you had me thinking that like I couldn't afford to get a divorce and that I was going to be the single mom who had no money. And he was just like Leah, you would have gotten half of everything, yeah, but Plus child support. And I was like, well, now I know that, but in the moment of me asking for a divorce, like you made me feel like that wasn't a thing Right, divorce like you made me feel like that wasn't a thing right. And he was like, well, yeah, because I didn't want you to leave me. So it was this like mind fuck. Like he was made. He was saying these things because he didn't really want me to leave him.
Speaker 1:But it kind of fucked with me a little bit where I was like, oh shit, he's right. Like, and that's not fair. I felt like tom sandoval and ariana, where I'm like I remember getting into fights with him Like why would you get the house? I'm the mom I would get the kids. Like you fucking live in an apartment. Like I don't want to be like kicked out of my own house. Right, because we're getting a divorce. Like, why do I have to get out of the house? He's like, because you couldn't afford it. Like you don't make as much money as me and I'm like, but I would, because you would be giving me half of all your money and also child support, like I would have been able to afford it you know, Right.
Speaker 1:But yeah, it was just a total mind fuck. So that was the healing thing that came after it. I felt closer to him the next day, I felt safe enough to tell him about that and I recommended, I said, and I think we should take some of this money and go to Sedona or do something with the two of us just the two of us and that was like our first ever adult trip was Sedona and that's crazy to me too, that you guys like never went on adult trips.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, we did one and it got fucked up with that. We've talked about that one before. That was before sobriety. Yeah, the one trip we ever took without kids was before he got sober and it was horrible, worst trip of my life, oh God, anyway, yeah.
Speaker 2:That's my LSD story. That's crazy. 419.
Speaker 1:What a ride, and I also like me on the fact that 420 is the next day, like Not a coincidence at all, no, and all of the connections to like the Grateful Dead and 419 and 420.
Speaker 2:And you know. So now I'm going to listen to some Grateful Dead songs.
Speaker 1:I am going to listen to them Saturday and I'm going to maybe eat an edible. I love it. Go a little high.
Speaker 2:I love that journey for you In celebration of 420. I love that. You should do it too.
Speaker 1:Girl, I already knew you were. You don't have to ask me. Cannabis is not my drug, but I'll do it every now and then. I've always said that Like it used to be, and now.
Speaker 2:I don't use it. I've cut way, way, way back, but I still love it.
Speaker 1:I will use it for like date nights or fun nights with friends. I just don't use it the way that I used to to escape more intentional with it.
Speaker 2:A hundred percent. Yeah, it's for connection, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, okay, you got anything else to add to that? No, that was wonderful. I'm going to add these books to. I think they already are on our Amazon, but if you are really interested in the microdosing, I would suggest a really good day. Um, if you want to dive into the history of it. Um, acid dreams is another good one, and highly highly recommend watching the sunshine makers. Such a good document. What's that on Might be on Amazon. Okay, I'll have to look. Um, but yeah, it's a. It's a fascinating story, okay.
Speaker 2:Okay, awesome, that's all I got Great job.
Speaker 1:Leah, happy bicycle day everybody.
Speaker 1:We hope you have a great day celebrating. Don't do acid unless you're trying to trip for like 16. Oh, I do want to say this the reason that they are not using LSD and acid and slash acid in the clinical trials today is because it's such a long trip, like 12 to 14 hours that would take twice the staff, twice the hours, twice the money, like to have someone sitting with someone for that long and observing, like in the clinical trials. But I do think that, like with all of these other psychedelics kind of being pushed through the FDA approval process, lsd will kind of be on that and there's something really fucked up to be said about the fact that, like these substances help us learn more about ourselves and help us to become more critical thinkers. And there is a reason I'm just saying there's a reason they don't want us to do it.
Speaker 2:Yep, so think about that for a second. Do the math. Do the math on that?
Speaker 1:Of course they don't want us to do it? Yep. So think about that for a second. Do the math. Do the math on that. Of course, they don't want them to be illegal, but exploring your own mind should not be illegal. That blows my mind every time. The fact that, like I, could have something that's potentially healing and helpful and beneficial to all of mankind is illegal. It's fucked up, yep, okay. That's fucked up, yep, okay.
Speaker 2:That's all.
Speaker 1:I got All right. Stay open, be curious, we'll see you on the other side. Bye.