60 | Microdosing with the Mushroom Mamasita, (Bijou Finney)

Venture with us as we FINALLY explore the healing power of microdosing with Bijou Finney, The Mushroom Mamasita. Bijous is a sex, love & relationship guide, microdosing coach, retreat host & psychedelic facilitator. She talks with us about the potential of microdosing to break through personal blocks and mental health struggles and offers profound insights into how this powerful healing tool can be harnessed for personal growth and recovery from past traumas. This episode provides listeners with an all-encompassing view of microdosing, distinguishing between a 'heroic journey' and an 'intuitive journey' with psychedelics.

We understand the importance of guidance and support when embarking on a new journey, especially when working with powerful psychedelics. Bijou shares her expertise on personalized approaches and protocols, underlining the significance of setting the right intentions and understanding the medicine's role in our lives.

Finally, we delve into how to choose the right psychedelic facilitator and the questions to ask before embarking on this journey. Bijou illuminates the potential dangers of untrained facilitators, creating a cautionary tale for those considering this path. Being aware of the different factors at play is crucial.

This episode is not just about microdosing; it's about self-discovery, healing, and understanding the powerful potential of psychedelics in a safe, controlled, and conscientious manner. Buckle up and stay tuned for some possible micro-retreat information.

Follow Bijou here: https://www.mushroommamasita.com/

And here: https://instagram.com/mushroommamasita

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Use code OTHERSIDE15 for 15% off of our favorite mushroom gummies!

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:21

Hello everybody. We just got done with such an incredible interview as always yeah, but it's always I take it every time, I know, but I really fucking mean it. We mean it every time, but we just got done interviewing Biju Finney. If you follow her on Instagram, she is the Mushroom Mamacita and we've been following her for a while, but today was the first time we actually like connected with her and had a conversation, and it was a beautiful, enlightening, educational conversation for myself.

Speaker 3: 0:56

So I'm so excited for the listeners to hear this episode, yeah, and so what Biju does is she is a psychedelic facilitator, medicine woman, micro dosing coach, helping entrepreneurs, couples, you know, sex, love, all the good stuff. But what I love about what she does, and the reason I love talking to her today, is because as much as we've been in this space and as many episodes as we have put out, we have never talked to someone about micro dosing.

Speaker 1: 1:29

How have we not really done that yet? We did a little bit with Kyler in the very very very beginning, but I didn't even really know what the fuck micro dosing was. This is like a year ago when we talked to him. I've learned so much now, and then I learned even more talking to her today.

Speaker 3: 1:44

You know, I think about that Like why haven't we not talked about this before? And I think it really goes back to the fact that you and I were not big micro dosers.

Speaker 1: 1:54

Well, you and I are big heroic journeyers, right and we just we dive right in, and not everybody is like that.

Speaker 3: 2:03

Right, a lot of people need to just dip their toes, but I think we had to learn that we had to. Yeah, because for a while we're like what's wrong with you, guys, you don't want to do like five grams, like what's wrong with you, scaredy cat? And now we're like, oh, that's not, that's a thing that we do Not. Everybody operates that way, right? No shade to anybody who doesn't know.

Speaker 1: 2:25

Oh my gosh, no not at all, cause it's. I think that's kind of like, why we're here is because we are the ones who will experiment with pretty much anything and then share experiences for people who don't they. They don't, they want to dip their toe, or they just want to learn, or they're just curious, and they, they almost like learn through our experiences. Yeah.

Speaker 3: 2:50

Through our failures, through our successes, through what worked for us. But even still, hearing about our larger journeys, people still are like but I just want to try it, I just want to dip my toes. Where do I get started? How do I get started? And while we can help with that, it was just recently where you and I were like I think we should stick with the micro dosing protocol for a while. I think we need to experiment with it. I need, I think we need to not just do it, experiment with it the way that we experiment with everything else, like do it in a way that makes sense and follow a protocol with help. And this is where this episode really like helped us see a different side of this psychedelic space and how going big or going home isn't always the right answer.

Speaker 1: 3:43

And people really do get a lot of healing, or can get a lot of healing, from micro dosing and working with Biju directly and and and knowing how I think it's, it's great to work with someone like her while you are micro dosing. So you know how to set intentions, you know how to integrate these experiences and also you know how to handle a lot of these situations as they come up, because there are going to be some things that may become up that you're not necessarily ready for.

Speaker 3: 4:17

Well, I think she's like, she's like Bob the builder, like she's got these tools for you. I love that, yeah, because like right now, you can go online and Google micro dosing and the things that pop up are like so cookie cutter, this is how much and this is how you do it. But that has not. Micro dosing is not a one size fits all, it is not cookie cutter there are.

Speaker 1: 4:40

none of us are cookie cutter, literally. Think about how different each human is.

Speaker 3: 4:46

So, to again put in a box what's right for me isn't going to be right for everybody, so it's important to have someone on your journey to help support you in other ways and giving you the tools along the way, because you can't just like micro dose every morning and be like it's not working. I'm going to stop. That's not how any of this works. So I'm excited for you guys to hear this episode and hopefully you guys love Beesha as much as we do, because she's our little mama's sister now that and we've.

Speaker 1: 5:20

we've been getting a lot of messages. When we had Nicole Darren, the astrologer, on and she made a little hint about working with us and having to retreat, she got blown the fuck up with a lot of messages and requests of people who really, really wanted to be a part of that. And Beesha is actually going to be a part of this when we do do this and we we talk about it in the episode. So for those that are curious about this little mini retreat that we are doing with Nicole and Beesha, follow through.

Speaker 3: 6:01

You'll hear it first. Follow through to the full episode and we touch on that with Beesha and what that's going to look like for anybody interested in doing a micro retreat with us. So follow along and stay curious, be open. We'll see you guys on the other side of this episode.

Speaker 1: 6:24

Yes, beeshu, we are so excited to have you back on. Our listeners do not know this, but a couple weeks ago we had you on but we were facing some technical difficulties on our end. So glad we got that sorted out, because we have a lot of stuff we want to dive in with you today. Can you give a little just overview of who you are and what it is that you do?

Speaker 2: 6:54

Yeah. So first of all, thank you for having me on again. I've been waiting to talk to you all forever.

Speaker 2: 6:59

I know, but yeah, so I am more.

Speaker 2: 7:06

So.

Speaker 2: 7:07

There's like clinicians, like therapists, that are currently supporting people with what their psychedelic journey looks like and there are more of like coaches in the coaching space that are utilizing the psychedelics.

Speaker 2: 7:20

And I would say it's the wild west right now, so it's kind of hard to, as you all know, to explain what you do, but currently I'm supporting people with some of the big blocks that we're all facing, so health blocks and money blocks and sex, love and relationship blocks and like showing up in the world with your gifts kind of blocks. So I support people with micro assisted sessions, virtually at times, or just coaching in general, like what does your psychedelic journey look like? Because everyone should have a very customized approach, they should all go very slow, they should all really understand what's right for them and their environment and what they're trying to heal or process or establish in their lives. So, yeah, I'm just more of like a hand holder and a cheerleader and a big like a supporter of an advocate of utilizing this medicine to rewire your brain and to soothe your nervous system so that you can be the best person that you want to be on this planet.

Speaker 3: 8:26

I love the hand holder, Like because I really do feel like you know, it's kind of like what you said. It's the wild west out there right now. Wild west, this is like this renaissance that's been happening for quite a while but there's just a resurgence of it over the last few years and the word micro dosing gets thrown around and I don't think people really know. I know they don't know because the amount of times people will come to me and ask me questions and then, well, but I'm afraid because what if I have a bad trip and I'm like you're not tripping, this is not tripping, this is literally a micro dose and it is so hard for people to wrap their heads around this idea of taking a psychedelic but not having a psychedelic experience. So this word micro dosing is new to people, and then a micro dosing coach is very new to people. So how many people have you talked to who are like terrified of starting?

Speaker 2: 9:30

Yeah, I mean honestly, when I started myself, there is very little on the internet. And then when I became such a huge fan of it, I wanted to help so many of my friends and family members. I saw the fear and the desire to be like, supported, on their journey. And you're absolutely right. I have consultations with people all the time that have a lot of the propaganda from the past still in their minds or they are fearful of what's going to come up in their lives and they've done such a good job of suppressing everything that they're like why would I want to pull all that out? And or they got a little bit frisky when they were out drinking at a concert one night and took a little too much, and then that's like the PTSD that we need to work past for them to be able to micro dose in more of a healing and optimizing way. So, yeah, I mean it's wild right now the perceptions, the questions that I get.

Speaker 2: 10:29

It's really good for me to have people ask me questions because I feel like when you devote your life to something for five plus years, you become very like oh, doesn't everybody know these basics? And you're like no, this is just the beginning and very few people understand this concept and so, yeah, it's like baby steps and dipping your toe in and having your hand held and understanding. I mean, most people don't know that there are different protocols or there are different strains. And so I've had some, especially women, come to me and they're like I'm trying to Paul Stam and stack at point two because I'm a rule follower and it says that and it's making me so sick and it's horrible. And I'm like, yeah, let's cut out the nice.

Speaker 2: 11:14

And point two is way too high for you. You're like 115 pounds, and so it's just like, oh my gosh, like they're literally just typing what is micro dosing into the internet and like trying to figure it out themselves. And I'm like I've no, I've been there and I've done that and you don't have to do it that way, because where I'm like tenacious at trying to figure something out, not everybody else is, and so sometimes if they had just stuck with it long enough and had more support and done it right for themselves, they would have gotten huge benefits, but instead they maybe didn't take enough and didn't see the value that it gave them. So they stopped or took way too much and are like ugh, that is horrible. I do not want to do that, and so, yeah, it's really taking the time to help dial someone in.

Speaker 3: 12:01

This is not cookie cutter One size fits all. This is very, very personalized to each individual and without somebody kind of holding your hand through it or coaching you through it or guiding you through it, you can get lost in a very big world.

Speaker 1: 12:17

And I think it's against kind of what we've been conditioned. Because we're conditioned to if you're feeling this, maybe take a pill and that's what you do. Where this is, it's a whole different world. So it is really starting from the beginning and starting from scratch. When talking to a lot of people about it because there is that curiosity there but they don't even know that's the first question we get. I don't know what to do. How do I even start? I know I want to change and I know I want something different.

Speaker 3: 12:50

And I will say I'm very guilty of feeling like kind of angry with people Like, oh my God, what do you not understand about a microdose? But again, like I've been in this space for quite a while, so it seems like common sense to me. But I have to remind myself that in the beginning, like I didn't take my first microdose for over a month and I had it with me because I was like I gotta wait until I don't have kids, I gotta wait until I have a day off and I have nothing planned, because what if I, what if I feel it, what if I can't drive?

Speaker 3: 13:23

And that fear was very much there. It's hard to remember that I used to be the exact same way.

Speaker 1: 13:32

Well, and you and Biju. It may be wrong, but you guys seem like you guys are the diggers Like you guys are gonna go down the rabbit holes and you guys are gonna be the ones who figure it out. Not everybody is like that. I'm not like that.

Speaker 2: 13:46

Well, and I will say, like the people that I was around at the time when I was like I feel called to do this, like as my, I think this is my calling, and when I put myself out there there was not anyone like me that I could find that was like I wanna help you with microdosing. And I even had psychedelic people around me that were interested or used to psychedelics like who would need a microdosing coach. That's just so stupid. But then I went and did another training and it was more about like visualizations and working through things and finding your blocks and your wounds. So I did that training and then I combined the two and I was like doing it on a mic, doing most healing activities on a microdose, just makes them that much better. So like mirror work and ecstatic dance and breath, light breath work, and like journaling and visualizations and yoga on a microdose, like you go that much further with it. And so that's when I started realizing like, oh, depending on what someone's trying to work on, is it I'm trying to find my blocks and wounds, cause I have no idea what they even are, or am I trying to reprogram them, or am I trying to support my health and like, really process stuck emotion, all of those things and all those desires take a different approach, like you need to do it in a different way. And so that's when I was like, okay, this is way more complicated than people are giving this credit for, and what's possible. When you take the time to figure out what's right for you and you have someone to ask questions, you can go so much further.

Speaker 2: 15:31

And so I think that's why, all of a sudden, like, so many people are popping up. Because there is there is stigma around this, there is fear around this, and technically it does have the potential. If you take the wrong dose, you could be laid out for a little bit and not be able to go about your day. And so, yeah, like you should talk to someone about it at first, and that person should make you really comfortable with utilizing the medicine for the rest of your life as needed. Not that you'll be stuck using it for the rest of your life, but as life puts you through the tumbler, you'll want to intuitively bring this back into your life as needed. And so like, yeah, you should take the time at first to really work with someone who knows about this, and then you yourself become super knowledgeable, to then be able to utilize it in your life.

Speaker 3: 19:17

Christine and I talk about this all the time. I'm gonna go there. We were the two who jumped straight into a heroic journey and that doesn't happen often and we realize not everybody is like that. But we often talk about when people come to us with microdosing, like I've taken course after course and I know a lot about it. But I'm like but I don't follow a protocol, I do it intuitively. And I think you are the same way, like we don't really follow any type of plan, we just do it as we needed, which I didn't even realize was a way of doing it. I'm like, oh okay, we're not doing it wrong, we're just doing it our way. But we've recently talked about maybe following like a full protocol and experimenting with it and seeing how that works for us, just so we are like, yeah, we've done it this way too. Yeah, we haven't even followed a protocol, we've never followed a protocol.

Speaker 3: 20:18

And the question I think we get so many questions from people who do microdose or who are starting microdosing one of the first things they'll say when they come to us and they're like yeah, it's not working, I'm not feeling anything. And then I'm digging well, are you doing it with an intention. Are you setting an intention? Are you journaling? Like there's so much more to this than just taking a microdose every other morning or every two days and expecting it to work, because there's something about this medicine that is not the way we are used to medicine working. How do you explain that to someone who's used to like instant gratification or these symptoms to instantly go away? And how do you explain that to someone who maybe tries microdosing for the first time and they can't stop crying that day Like they're? Like I thought this was supposed to make me happy, I thought this was supposed to make things great and I can't stop crying. What's this?

Speaker 2: 21:15

Yeah, and so it's so interesting because what I've found and obviously this is not always the case, but that first trip, that first year at OCEA might have done might have been very on-ducing to you. Maybe you had a big semantic process, maybe you're just like your reality expanded in a way that is like intense. For most people that is a bit much right To be able to even integrate, and you've never been to that space before, so you're not actually able to work on a lot of things consciously. So what my approach is? Some men need that, they need to be knocked over the head with a big hero dose before they'll even start doing the work. But, like most women, we want to just like in the bedroom, we want to be warmed up and we want to micro dose for a little bit. We want to get comfortable with understanding the medicine, maybe having a one gram tea experience before we work on an intention. And when you're in that place and in that space in your mind more frequently, when you finally do sit with the medicine, with a facilitator that you've built trust with and with the medicine you've built trust with, you can really actually work on some stuff then. And so there's a whole different way of going about it. That's very intentional and very conscious, but there's nothing to say that hero doses that move a bunch of energy that you're not aware of is not valid and then intuitively doing it Like I do it intuitively now. It's just most people need to start with a protocol so that they actually build that relationship and figure it out for themselves.

Speaker 2: 22:54

So, for instance, that's why I love supporting people, because within just a couple of weeks, I could tell oh, you're the type of person that I'm gonna need to show the power of the medicine too, or else you're not gonna do this. So I'm gonna suggest that you figure out how to get yourself a one gram tea experience and then come back and talk to me, right? And then what other people are like they really wanna slowly get there and they want someone to hold their hand, and they will be like oh my gosh, I'm crying. Yes, that needs to be processed. Support yourself in processing that. Do this, do that, do this, like all the things that are actually gonna get that stuff out of your system. You're then gonna start getting the things that everyone's talking about with the rainbows and the happiness, but there isn't a substantial amount of unprocessed emotion in your system that is weighing you down and can manifest his disease later on if you don't support it.

Speaker 2: 23:49

So let's say you keep a low dose in your system three times a week and maybe you don't feel it at all. But then one Saturday or two Saturdays a month you ask your partner to take the kids or you if you're a single, you alone do a higher dose. So maybe it's double your normal micro dose or triple your normal micro dose and you go in with the intention of I'm allowed to cry for the next three hours, I'm allowed to rage for the next three hours, I'm allowed to dance for the next three hours, I'm allowed to have self pleasure and bath and walk and like, connect with myself. So like, yeah, it needs to be planned and intentional and there needs to be this like a shift with the medicine and the practices throughout at least the first three months, where you really start to understand what is this to me and how am I wrapping it around my life, versus the other way around.

Speaker 3: 24:43

I love that.

Speaker 1: 24:44

I do too.

Speaker 3: 24:45

Like, even like the foreplay. This is like foreplay. Microdosing is the foreplay to like the change that's about to happen.

Speaker 2: 24:55

Yeah, I mean, and that's the thing Like when I work with people, we're doing micro dose assisted sessions where I'm asking them questions and stuff that they weren't even aware of programs and narratives and thoughts and wounds that they've been playing in the background.

Speaker 2: 25:12

They come up to the surface and then we see them and we say, okay, can we address these with practices? Can we replace those narratives and then foster that Great, some of them are gnarly, they're in there deep and we need to get to them with a bigger dose. But not until you've moved all the other stuff right, cause if you think about it, you don't want to blow open all of your closets and let all the skeletons out at once. You want to invite one out at a time and dance with it, and then when the big daddy's back there, then you know how to dance with him, right, you've had a lot of practice, and so there's just like a way of going about it from my experience that you can. You can really completely rewire your brain and nervous system in life with some very thoughtful Methods and approaches to just taking the medicine and crying a little bit once in a while.

Speaker 1: 26:06

I never really thought about it like that. Yeah, so I love that we're having you on. Let me ask you this how did you get into this space yourself?

Speaker 2: 26:15

Yeah, Big trip. So Really she's like us.

Speaker 2: 26:23

Yeah, well, cuz out on the internet. There is I say this all the time bunch of like hippie dudes talking about their hero doses. And I saw one article about Silicon Valley guys biohacking their minds to have in this like ability to Be innovative with their businesses. And I was like, so, in my masculine and biohacking, I was like, oh, I'm gonna force my brain to get better. And so then I started micro dosing and I was like, oh, this is great. If this is good, more must be better than the good old American way of thinking. Right. And so I had a couple Really big trips and I was like whoa, I Wow, what do I do with all this shit that I just brought up? And I definitely did.

Speaker 2: 27:13

I went into a mini depression and I was like, whoa, this is a lot, and what does this mean about me? Who am I? I mean you. You can rattle your cage pretty fast and thank goodness I didn't have like kids and all this stuff going on at the time. But me personally, I had a lot of trauma that came up. So it was, it was a lot for me to deal with. So I had to and then come back a little bit and I got really into.

Speaker 2: 27:41

What does psychedelics even mean then? So then I tried a bunch of psychedelics and I was like ayahuasca and Toad and all the things and I was like, okay, I see the validity in and the essences that these have, but I think I need, I need a slow roll with some of this right now If I'm gonna live in like Capitalistic America, like I can't just I'm not living in the jungle just doing medicine all the time, like I have to also pay the bills. And so I was like, okay, so micro dosing is this thing that I can like Easily use little by little and and understand myself, understand what I desire, understand how to get myself there. So, yeah, I mean, I'm the type of person when I want to do something, I go hard in the paint and I don't stop till I figure it out, and so and not everyone is like that, like you said and After a while, when I started making people that I love do it honestly, which I don't suggest for people to do that I started seeing like whoa, this helps with.

Speaker 2: 28:43

Like someone in my family has brain damage. Whoa, this helps my 80 year old dad with like word recall and memory. And whoa, like my, my friend that's drinking as much as I am, like we need to slow down. And it was just like, why does this help across the board in so many ways? And I think it's that it gets to the taproot of why we're all soothing ourselves with the addictions and with the diseases and with the overworking and and Sadness, right. And so then it's like, okay, how am I gonna find those taproots? Because I'm not good at being intimate with people, like how am I gonna have these hard Conversations with them when I was never taught how to do that? So that's when I went and got the training and I was like, oh, oh, my god, I understand so much more now. And that's when I was like, okay, I need to Frankenstein together all the trainings to be able to help people not make the mistakes that I did.

Speaker 3: 29:41

Essentially, yeah, oh, you can the same. I swear to God, you were just like us, because even the same thing happened to me, like I came out of this giant World shattering, earth shattering journey and came into a Toxic marriage with, with an alcoholic husband who wanted nothing to do with psychedelics, like which blew my mind because I'm like you put shit in your nose every weekend, not even thinking twice. But you were like, no, won't touch mushrooms, like what? But? But again, it was like this propagandize, like yeah, but if I do I might go crazy. You know, which, ironically, is the thing that got him sober. But I fell back into like a depressive episode because I had no support. I didn't have hands to hold, I didn't have friends who understood. I was like wanting to scream from the mountains like everybody needs to do this, but nobody wanted to hear me. So it kind of isolated me a little bit.

Speaker 3: 30:44

You had like the worst depressive episode you've ever had yeah, even worse than like pre-mushrooms, like it just sent me spiraling. But you talked a second ago about like this, you know, figuring out why you want to drink and why you want to fill your time, and I think a lot of people don't realize that, like escapism comes in Several different forms. It's not just addiction, it's not just alcoholism, it's not just Withdrawing, it's also like filling your time with stuff.

Speaker 2: 31:14

Like being overly avoiding it's avoiding.

Speaker 3: 31:18

It's not just. Well, I don't have a problem, I don't have a drinking problem, I'm fine. Okay, but when are you slowing down? Do you ever take the time to slow down and sit with yourself?

Speaker 2: 31:30

So well, that's my favorite. It's my favorite because I definitely have people that are like at rock bottom and I and I've said this before I love working with them because it's only up from there and they're like so sick of being there. But I have people that come to me were just like me, like oh, I'm good, like I've been my business going well and I'm optimized, and then we start looking and pulling away some of the curtains and they're like your partner's not happy with you, your health isn't great, like your idea of yourself isn't is like a paper bag. If you get blown over by someone, you're over right. So it's like there's all these Fissades and mirrors and it is really intimate and vulnerable to come to someone and be like let's look at all my dirty and my nasty and my stuff that I hate, and it's like but if you do, if you're that brave, you will overcome it, you will understand yourself, you will decide that you want to live in a completely different way and you will be happier because of it.

Speaker 2: 32:36

But that's the thing. It's like Everything in our society, what has the ability to distract us and associate us and and just numb us, and so, yeah, I mean it's kind of like amazing that that people would even desire to do this. I mean, I love the people that I work with. I think they're the most brave and Amazing people in the whole world, because with everything out there, it's easy to just be Sad and depressed and and take the medicine that's gonna keep you stable, versus giving you the ability to be in these beautiful Ups and downs of life and to know that that's even okay.

Speaker 2: 33:16

Like there is so much conditioning that we have that we demonize so many parts of ourselves that even unraveling that and determining oh, you're okay, that's who you are, it's because you're this in human design or you're this in your astrology chart or you're like this in neogram, like Stop trying to fit yourself into this like Other person. It is completely different cosmic makeup than use like life and and way to success. And so there's just like we could work together for years and years and years if people wanted to, because humans are so complex and there are so many narratives and wounds and ideas and Things that they can create in their lives if they had some support. And yeah, it's just the most interesting thing in the entire world to me at this point.

Speaker 3: 34:06

How did your family and friends like? What did they think about this? Would you were like this is what I'm doing, this is it? What were the looks? What were the looks like? How was the family dinner then?

Speaker 2: 34:21

so, um, I'm super grateful for the fact that, um, my, both my parents are pretty hippie and so it wasn't really my parents also. They knew I've been like this since I was little, in the sense of like you're not gonna be able to shame me or tell me anything like I'm. In fact, if you do do that, I'm gonna go harder that way. So they're, they know don't, don't even, don't, don't, don't even look at her, that shit. She'll just let her do her thing. That's what my family knows me as, but Definitely people that have known me.

Speaker 2: 34:56

I mean, I lived in Austin for 15 years and I was a specific way. I was very like I was a shitty boss, I was like not the nicest person, I drank a lot. I was like a completely different person. So, after all this healing, I come up and I'm like, at that point, pretty love and light before I had my dark night of soul, and they're like who are you? Especially because, like before that I was pretty religious and like very oh, tight, and so like if people been following me since middle school, they're like who the hell are you now? Which I give myself the right to transform as much as I want in my life. But but yeah, going against the grain on that, and then, honestly, in my relationships my partners, parents didn't love it, right Like there's a lot of things that we have to work around and honestly, I had to jump. It's kind of like I call it the neck tattoo when you're like I'm never going back to corporate America. So you like get a big tattoo on your neck to be like I literally cannot go back to corporate America. Like that's the kind of thing that I had to do is like I'm about to, like I believe in this so strongly. And when I came out, like I said there wasn't that much about it. So I was like I believe about this so strongly that even if I'm called crazy and even if they think that I'm some weird hippie woo, woo person and they totally disowned me, that's how strongly I believe in it.

Speaker 2: 36:27

And if I put this out on the internet, it's out on the internet for the rest of my life. So do I really believe in this? And so I had to do an experience around it and that's when I downloaded my name and I was like mushrooms want better PR. They want someone that can talk to entrepreneurs especially, I felt, because entrepreneurs make or break a country. They are the fabric of society. They make big decisions that affect the environment, that affect people's pay, that affect people's mental health, and so, like I want to work with entrepreneurs, so how do I get the average entrepreneur okay with the idea of mushrooms? And so that was my desire, my assignment, that I got on that trip and I was like, okay, this is my thing, I'm gonna be probably mushroom on my seat there for the rest of my life, and I am so non-committal so that's big for me to be like, yep, this is it, I'm doing it, and I don't see myself going back. I see myself just understanding this on a much deeper level over the next 20 or 30 years.

Speaker 1: 37:34

And you're blowing my mind right now but even just your stance on entrepreneurs, I never really thought about it in that way, cause we're entrepreneurs and my partner is an entrepreneur, so I'm, as you were saying that I'm like, okay, so I need to book a session with her because, like, how to like move forward in this space and we've kind of sometimes have been confused about that and we have never followed a micro dosing protocol and so maybe- we do things the way we do them.

Speaker 3: 38:07

We don't follow rules.

Speaker 1: 38:09

Right, but I love how you have, such, from an early age, have had such a strong sense of self, cause I relate to that a lot. I guess my question is not. A lot of people are like that, though, and with the society that we grew up in and it's even when you're trying to be in this space and be love, enlighten all of that there are so many things that are conditioning to go against that. So what advice do you have for somebody who is trying to make the changes and they are trying to do the work and they are trying to get more in this space, but maybe their partner is not supportive, or their family doesn't get it, or just their environment is not conducive to them trying to heal and change?

Speaker 2: 39:00

Yeah, I mean that's the thing is growing up and wanting to go so against structure because of the maybe some of the religious wounds that I had, or just like people trying to tell me who I was allowed to be in general, like that rubs me the wrong way instantaneously. But I did notice and I might have gotten this from. Biohacking is like there needs to be some structure to be able to tell what's working for you, and it needs to be customized and structure. The masculine can hold, so the feminine can blossom, and so for safety to be created, there needs to be some structure and then go buck wild, like go crazy once you're comfortable, but the comfort and the safety comes from a structure in the beginning, kind of thing, right? So, and that's the thing that I hope people understand, because I also have a lot of people that come to me and are like, oh my God, I had this big, amazing trip and now I want everyone to do this. How do I go and tell everyone to do this? And I'm like you need to do you first, like figure this out yourself. Like don't think and this is a touchy subject for me, but I'll have someone that's like barely microdose a couple of times on a low dose and has had such a great experience because they haven't had much trauma in their lives. And so then, all of a sudden, they're creating microdosing circles with zero like support and know, like who are you? Do you have bipolar schizophrenia in your family? What medications are you on? They're just like, yeah, take the amount that I'm taking and everything's gonna be okay. And it's like there needs to be structure and support and then allow yourself to flow. And so, yeah, it's like go under the radar for as long as you need, like you don't have to tell anyone about it, you don't have to feel seen and accepted at first. See and accept yourself in it.

Speaker 2: 41:01

That was where I was wrong Is that I kept looking for validation and wanting to share outside of myself. And then, when I got that big pushback and people are like, no, we're freaking weirdo, like what are you doing? I was like, okay, I need to like understand this myself, I need to work on and fortify myself. And then, when I was able to come out and I did get that pushback, I was way stronger then, cause I was like this is me. You're not gonna be able to shame me out of this, which is wild, because that's what I started noticing Everyone's family is doing to them. They're taking back love and they're giving judgment and shame and that is a form of control and abuse. And I know that they are doing it to keep the person safe.

Speaker 2: 41:49

But this is why cultures and environments don't shift very well, because people get really stuck in this like regimented idea of reality and what is PC and what is okay and what is acceptable, and it's like no, we kind of need to blow the doors off of money and sex and self-help and mental health and plant medicine work.

Speaker 2: 42:15

And it's gonna happen whether people like it or not. But I was shocked to see how fast all of a sudden. I thought it was gonna be five or 10 years before anyone would listen to me and then fast forward two years and then there was documentaries about it and people talking about it and I was on the cover of Newsweek and I was like, holy shit, the mushrooms must have gotten to like a bunch of us all at once and it was like cuddled together and I was like, okay, guys, we need to help the world, otherwise this is gonna go off the cliff right, and so, yeah, it's really exciting to see but, like we said, there's so much misinformation out there or there's so much like here. Here's your microdose. Good luck, because that's the way the doctors do it with the Prozac, and it's like no, you can't do that with this medicine, in my opinion.

Speaker 1: 43:07

Yeah, I love being in this space because I feel like I am very much so an newbie and I was that person who I jumped right into a heroic journey and then I was like, why isn't anybody talking about this, like you know? And then I wanted to talk to everyone about it. And I love being in this space of you know, having this podcast, because then I get to talk to somebody like you and somebody who is more of an expert in this space and I'm like oh, you have some work to do still and you have some learning to do still, like. But I like being in that position because I feel like I get to be in this space but also just learn.

Speaker 3: 43:51

But I think we're right where we're supposed to be. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 43:54

Yeah, because that's what I was going to say. You know, I just did a training of my method and all those women are the same. It's the medicine woman's path. You go hard in the pain and not everyone needs to, but the medicine woman does. She needs to be in that hard spot first. She needs to understand, she needs to do it the wrong way from the beginning. She needs to understand all of the ways, she needs to walk the walk before she talks, to talk, and that's that's you were put on this planet. In my opinion. I mean medicine women.

Speaker 2: 44:25

We, all women have the ability to be a medicine woman, but like, yeah, if that's the path you chose, that is for a reason and you have to just trust that and there's going to be so much knowledge and value that comes from you to a lot of people that don't need to go about it that way.

Speaker 2: 44:42

Not that that even is a bad way, cause, like I said, there are some women and I don't not speaking for you, but I was a very shelled off, uptight, sad, mad person and I needed a big dose to rattle me. Not everybody does, and that's what I'm noticing is like when I talk to someone, I'm like, oh, I know you, I was you, let's go this way, come with me. And then other people I'm like, oh, no, no, no, we're going to, we're going to go softer route, right. And so it's cool to have someone be able to like read you and understand you and go. I think I have a way that we should go and it's like it's cool to get your path customized and to be able to reach out with questions instead of getting on Google and being like overwhelmed by the amount of differentiating like information out there. That is just so confusing. It's like no talk to someone who's done the whole path themselves and worked with like multiple people to see the variety that that is existing out there in each individual person.

Speaker 1: 45:47

And I think that's kind of our role is we experiment and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't, and we share it.

Speaker 3: 45:55

This is what didn't work.

Speaker 2: 45:57

Yeah, me too. And there's, there's like my ego would have never let me do that before. And now I'm like, oh, I fucked up royally here. You want to hear about it. Like, let's, let's talk about it. I want to share these codes with you and and and yeah, it's like some people are like, oh, my God, that's so embarrassing. And it's like, yeah, yeah, but I don't want you to have to go through that. And that's me loving you, right, it's like the way that I show my love. But yeah, it's, it's super important.

Speaker 2: 46:28

And there's like no failure to me. There's no. There's no bad trips. There's no like you did it the wrong way. It's like, oh, for some reason, I trust the universe. How do you go that route? But let's go this pathway instead, right, and I will say some people needed. They'll come and talk to me and I'll give them my advice and my feel. And then they'll be like, oh, I'm not ready to invest in myself, or that seems really vulnerable and scary, so, so I'm just going to try to do it myself. And then they go, and then they come back and they're like, holy shit, that was a horrible idea. Let's try to repair this and go down the way that you said and I was like is there something about you that needed to have that happen? And that's okay and and yeah, but hopefully, hopefully, you don't have to be that type of person.

Speaker 3: 47:14

Well, there's lessons and failures. That's where the lessons are. That's how.

Speaker 1: 47:18

I learned I don't in failure and I'm not somebody who I learned from watching someone else fuck up.

Speaker 3: 47:24

I got to do it myself. I learned by fucking it up myself and then we share about it and then we talk about it. Not a lot of people are brave enough to share their failures.

Speaker 2: 47:34

That's what I was going to say. There's not very much of the the fuck ups aren't really that prevalent and that was like a huge thing that I saw when I was. I'd been obsessed with entrepreneurship since I was little and there was the first article I ever saw of a woman talking about her failure, and it was a major failure, like she lost a lot of money, the company closed, and I was like this is the first article I've ever read where a woman went into depth about the failure of her business. And that was like but every entrepreneur I've ever talked to had like 10 epic failures before they got their their like golden ticket, right. And so it's like wow, this is the thing.

Speaker 2: 48:15

It's kind of like Instagram we only want to see the happiness, but you don't really learn enough from that, right? So, like you, we have to put it all out there. We have to to share about the ups and the downs, even if they're embarrassing and ugly and and not nice to look at, because sometimes I don't want to see a sad story, but sometimes I need to read it and I need to understand what that means for me and what that means for the world, and so that that's the thing is that we're all struggling to want love and light and happiness all of the time, and that's not life. That is not what we're here for.

Speaker 3: 48:54

It's not realistic. So I want to talk a little bit about your cohort Cause if anybody new to this episode hasn't listened before, like we connected with you through Nicole Darren. We we actually knew you before that but hadn't really like connected, connected. So the mushroom, mama see, does that you have? Like, yeah, talk a little bit about this whole umbrella of of women that you have with you.

Speaker 2: 49:28

So at first it was. I knew that there was a lot of women that wanted to be medicine women but didn't have the time or the desire to show up publicly and put themselves out there because it was so scary. So at first I was like thinking truly I was an umbrella or a shell where it was like if people wanted to do this work since I had a pretty awesome waiting list, which I was super grateful for but I was like I want to be able to get them help and not tell them you have to wait three months, right, and so at first it was just that. But then I started realizing, when I put the call out there and I had specific women reach back out, it was like, oh, there can be like specialists. So it's like I work best with entrepreneurs and couples. I don't have kids, so even though I help a lot of moms, I don't really know your struggles like a mom does. And so there was like moms that wanted to just help moms and there are men that just want to help men, and there are nurses that are no longer nurses, that want to help people who have had traumatic, like diagnosis is or end of life, like anxiety, or there are people creatives that want to help creatives, or sex, love and relationship people that just want to focus on sex and psychedelics. And so I was like cool, like we can use my method, because it is a frank and signed method of healing and self actualization that could be, if focused with a specific intention, really, really powerful, especially if someone has a ton of training in the back end of what it means to be a mom or a nurse or a man or whatever. It is right. And so that's when I was like, okay, if I share this with people like the, the upsides and the downsides of this business, the structure that I created because, like, as we've talked about before, I'm Capricorn rising as I get older, I'm like, oh, this is, this is business, this is how I structure business.

Speaker 2: 51:35

Nicole, on the other hand, she doesn't have that and she's like an incredible channel and an amazing coach, but she's not going to set up the structure in her business like naturally right. So I had to help her with that. And that's where I think women helping women is really cool is like, yeah, let's, let's build businesses together, let's support as many people as we can with structure, because I think that's. The other thing is that there's a lot of the medicine workers out there that are just like just then, mow me like $100 for a session and all be good, and it's like people are not comfortable with that. It's like what are you going to help me do? What is the structure that you have created and and what can I bet on it doing for me? And and that's where I think people's trust of the medicine really comes in too is like I will truly hold you with professionalism and I will do my best to utilize these tools to get you results, rather than type thing that's out there sometimes right now, I guess.

Speaker 3: 52:41

Yeah, no, I love that. Can we talk about what's coming up? Yeah, okay. So last week Christine and I were out of town and we have been in talks with you about hosting something for our local Louisville listeners and really you don't even have to be local, but hosting some type of retreat and this has been in the works for quite a while, but everything just kind of fit perfectly Well and Nicole was on the podcast and just briefly mentioned a possibility of having a retreat with.

Speaker 1: 53:25

See you on the other side.

Speaker 3: 53:26

And we had to shut down for a bit because the messages were pouring in and a little bit overwhelming and we were like, oh my God, like I can't keep up, like every time I respond like there's five more. And it got a little bit overwhelming for a little bit and so we had dust settled, we started working with you guys and we have one in the works. Can we talk a little bit about that and what's what to expect and and?

Speaker 1: 53:52

but yeah, be you posted something about a town last week events coming up and. I love that you did this though.

Speaker 3: 54:02

Maybe, maybe on mushrooms.

Speaker 1: 54:04

You forgot about this and then, all of a sudden, people sent us your posts and they're like what?

Speaker 3: 54:14

you didn't tell us.

Speaker 1: 54:16

Like we haven't talked about it. We will. It's coming but yeah, we were.

Speaker 3: 54:22

we were like we're on mushrooms right now. We can't really answer these DMs. We'll get back to you guys. So now that we're sober and speaking with you, can you give us a little bit of preview about what that's going to look like for our peeps?

Speaker 2: 54:42

Yeah, yeah, it was. I attribute this to a friend. She was my client and now is a really good friend. She is a very entrepreneurial mind as well, and she was like there are a lot of people that are interested in working with this, but they feel apprehensive about the online component and they'll they they'll just keep putting it on the back burner. I think that they need like an experience where they can like understand this and maybe meet you in person and and really just like be able to ask questions and it be more of an easy to handle approach, like for them to dip their toe in.

Speaker 2: 55:23

And the concept came about where it's like these micro retreats that can happen anywhere and beautiful hosts like yourself pull together people and we come in, and the program is like at first we just teach, like this is how you dial in the right dose, string and protocol. This is based on your goals, what practices you should potentially work on accessing, or habits you want to enter your life while you're trying to do this. These are how you can move your body to process energy somatically, if something comes up for you one day, and so we kind of go into all of that at first and then we go into laying them down after moving their bodies a little bit and having a sound bath where they get to. They have had an experience of the sound bath before awesome, but if not, then it's typically a really amazing experience for them to go through a visualization and it's a visualization that I typically take most of my clients through and they can start seeing like how they feel and when they're focused on themselves and visualizing themselves in this specific way. And then afterwards we do snacks and meet and greet where they get to meet other fellow interested Psycho knots in their area. And then we do a build your own T bar, typically, where people get to use different plant allies to build a special T to utilize themselves down the road, based on what they're trying to work on.

Speaker 2: 56:59

So some that are very focused on women and or sleep or optimization in some kind of way, and so these elements tend to do really well together for people to then even understand.

Speaker 2: 57:13

Is this something that's right for me right now, or is this my cup of tea?

Speaker 2: 57:18

And so it's like really nice soft feather bed for them to to step down into and understand the world a little bit better and then ask very personal questions, like I get pretty personal questions on my Instagram where they will go into depth about maybe the type of medicine they're on or the type of trauma that they've had and they really want to understand like what's right for for me.

Speaker 2: 57:45

And if you don't want to do that on Instagram DM, then you could like do it in person, either take me to the side or do it in front of people, and I think being witnessed is really cool because in most of the many retreats that we've done, people sharing about their blocks or wounds are sharing about their desires. Sometimes it's the first time maybe ever said it out loud and to have strangers like look at them with compassion and love while they're doing it is a very healing experience for them as well. So it doesn't go too deep into integration but it does have some integration to get people comfortable with talking about themselves with others, because that's a huge part of working with psychedelics. It's not best to do it alone in the dark by yourself, like you need to talk about it afterwards with someone and that's really where a lot of the healing and the shift comes from, and so it's kind of planting that seed in them in that experience.

Speaker 1: 58:48

Yeah. I love that and we may have a theme. Oh yeah, I want to include that too, totally.

Speaker 3: 58:58

So this is happening October 28th and if, If it becomes too big, if more people are interested in this and we're anticipating we will look into maybe doing another one the next day. So I'm really excited about this. This is like new waters for us too, but you know, like we said, we're the ones who like dive head first. Yolo, yeah, but I love that. This is like gonna be something for people to dip their toes into. This is not a like going away for a weekend retreat in the middle of the jungle and experiencing this thing alone. This is not like that.

Speaker 1: 59:46

I have a question for you because we were talking about how, in this space, things can be kind of the wild wild West out here.

Speaker 1: 59:54

And there is somebody locally who we don't know personally, but we've heard a lot of horror stories where they do have events and they do have retreats and there have been situations where they've gone horribly wrong, where people don't know that they're taking medicine, they don't know what they're taking, they don't know how much they're taking. Somebody went to the hospital and there was not proper care in that situation and they are still doing it and still making money off of people and a lot of money, and we've really struggled with what to do because we've heard these stories and we know what's going on, but again, we don't host these kinds of events and we're not affiliated with this person. What is some advice to people who are curious and they want to get in this space and maybe do a mini retreat or something, to know that it's legit and to know that it's gonna do it's not gonna do more harm to them, because I think that is what has happened in this situation and they keep doing it.

Speaker 3: 1:01:23

So I think that happens a lot in this space. I'm sure Is this well, we didn't know anywhere else to go and that's the only place I knew of and we don't know anything about psychedelics.

Speaker 1: 1:01:35

We don't know anything about it.

Speaker 3: 1:01:37

So I trust that they know what they're doing. How do you, yeah, like, how do you tell someone like be careful, or how do you know what's right for you and what to look out for?

Speaker 2: 1:01:49

Yeah, yeah, I mean that's a very sore subject for me because I care so deeply about harm reduction and I don't want the people the powers that be that might have the ability to legalize this for more people to be able to point to any of those stories, and so I take it very seriously. I also trust the universe and the mushrooms because, as you'll know, if you don't have reference for them, they will spank you in ways that we don't even understand. So I trust that it'll work out the way that it will, without you guys getting involved. But yeah, I hear so many horror stories. I mean, people come to me to repair themselves from experiences and from untrained facilitators that had no business supporting someone, and it's not cool. But I will say some of the biggest red flags are like medicine people not telling you the strain or dose or medicine that you're working with. If you ask that question and they say things like oh, that's your ego asking you, just trust me, that's what they do. No, if they don't tell you their experience and if they've had like there's people that are doing like a trip sitting course or like a microdosing course, but they've never experienced big doses themselves or they haven't sat with multiple people and it's like you can't just take a course and understand the wide variety of experience that someone might have and be able to support them. So like, for example, I don't think people should be doing big experiences right out of the gate with zero support or zero past use of this medicine.

Speaker 2: 1:03:50

If someone doesn't ask you what is your past? What is your past trauma, what is your past look like? What is your current environment look like? Are you in a toxic relationship? That person should have asked you, like, what kind of what does your marriage look like? Like, what does your job look like? And if you're in a super talkative environment, then softening the shell around you is actually a horrible thing to do. And so, understanding that, understanding like, what are the SSRIs or other pharmaceuticals are you on? Like, how's your heart? How? Like, do you have any medical issues that you should talk to me about? People are not asking these questions and that's wild to me. So, yeah, ask them.

Speaker 2: 1:04:33

Say, can I talk to someone you've worked with before? How long have you been doing this? What does this look like? And what does your training look like? And what does the intake procedure look like? And what does integration afterwards. Look like how many calls do I get after this experience? Because people should be getting at least one to two integration calls after the fact. Because how do you really understand how this is trickled into your life unless you're talking weeks after the experience? And so if your facilitator does not offer you that kind of stuff, that, into me, is a red flag and you should probably do your due diligence and not get too excited and just do the first person you find Like really try to understand what's right for you.

Speaker 2: 1:05:22

Not to mention I think there's this idea right now and we've kind of talked about this maybe last call that we had was sometimes people will meet a facilitator and it's like a very against what they feel safe with. So like they're talking in a completely different language, they're obviously a completely different type of person and they just assume oh, that's a medicine person. So that's not true, right? There's such a variety of facilitators out there and if you feel more comfortable with someone that acts a little bit more clinical or acts a little bit more professional, then that's okay.

Speaker 2: 1:05:58

Like you, feeling safe is the number one thing. So the sniff test of like does this person make you feel safe and does this person make you feel like you can bear your goods to them, right? Like, don't do it if you get any kind of like gut feeling. That isn't right. And so, yeah, it's super nuanced, but I would say being cautious and maybe getting a referral from a friend that had a really good experience, or go to a place where they have set something up and it's like legitimate.

Speaker 3: 1:06:35

Yeah, one of our listeners reached out who was part of one of those ceremonies and she was like I have never heard the word intention before, or integration before. She was like I didn't know any of this stuff.

Speaker 1: 1:06:46

And then she said I think we took ayahuasca. It was a fruity drink and I'm like you did not take ayahuasca because ayahuasca tastes like fruit punch.

Speaker 3: 1:06:55

It tastes like dog shit. You were not drinking ayahuasca, but just that. Like had you no idea, just was like I don't know we did this and then there were so many people.

Speaker 1: 1:07:08

There were so many people, so she would try to go be alone and then people would come and like impact her experience because maybe they were having a hard time and they were getting in her space and I'm like, oh my gosh it sounds like chaos.

Speaker 1: 1:07:23

It's one thing after the other, and then someone went to the hospital and then they didn't get their money back, and then all this stuff and I'm like, oh my gosh, it's hard to sit back and watch. We do not claim to be the experts, but we are knowledgeable enough to be like no, no, no, no, no.

Speaker 3: 1:07:46

But think about the people who aren't knowledgeable in it and this is like the only chance they have. This is the safe, like, as far as they know, the closest thing that they have access to. So it's just a little bit scary.

Speaker 2: 1:08:03

It makes me really sad because there have been people who think, goodness, they were tenacious enough to then be like, okay, you didn't work well for me, but maybe another person would, where they come and talk to someone else. But a lot of people they'll just give up then and they'll have traumatized themselves more. And that makes me really, really sad, because if they had had the care and approach that was right for them, it could have changed their entire lives. And instead now they're even more untrusting and even more feeling like they're broken because they hear all these stories of people's success and then theirs is so unsuccessful. And so, yeah, I'm passionate about talking about that because it can, with the right support and love, change your life, and it can also make you feel like you're broken, and that's not a narrative that you want running in your mind. Yeah, yeah, they're not good or bad, they're powerful.

Speaker 3: 1:09:02

And there needs to be. This needs to be said too, because I think a lot of people think like, oh, but they do, psychedelics, they must be good. No, not everybody in this space is good.

Speaker 1: 1:09:15

Well, I think about myself just jumping into a heroic journey, you know, and I felt safe with you. But I can't imagine, if I would have done that with somebody or been in a situation where it didn't feel safe or it didn't feel comfortable, how it would have really changed the trajectory of your experience my healing and and my life.

Speaker 3: 1:09:35

Yeah, and my trauma. So not everybody in this space is good. But I also feel like until you start unpacking your stuff and until you start connecting with yourself, some people might have a very hard time discerning what a red flag is and what something. Well, they don't know. So it seems legit you know, they don't see the red flags because this isn't their comfort zone, this isn't their space. They just assume this person knows what they're doing.

Speaker 2: 1:10:02

Yeah, and they deeply want support and healing and love and like, yeah, I totally understand why someone would get excited and and go down a path without checking in with their intuition a little bit. But like, hopefully millions and millions of people will listen to your podcast or or more, more like information will come out, and I mean more and more.

Speaker 2: 1:10:30

I see I see trainings popping up left and right, because I know that this is going to be a true renaissance, like a true revolution in in, in what it means to have therapy and and support. But at the same time, it's kind of like, now more than ever, start being really careful about who you go to, because anyone can can take a little training and decide that they're like OK to do this right. And I will say I really appreciate the Vita program that I did because it opened my eyes to there is such an extensive amount of trauma out there that some people have no business unless they've had training in that specific type of trauma. So, for instance, when some people come to me and I don't have the capacity or training or understanding of the specific trauma that they have, I have people that I refer out to. So that's another thing, like, don't have the scarcity of. I'm just going to take anyone and everyone that comes to me.

Speaker 2: 1:11:40

If you're a facilitator, be an integrity and and and offer the right person, take care of them, because I will say, this industry allows you to see the depths and the darkness of what people are dealing with in this world, and it's not for everyone, it's not for the faint of heart and it does affect you and you do need to have energetic hygiene and you do need to have processing tools yourself and you need to be so incredibly passionate about this that it can get you through the times when you hear the hardest stories that you didn't even know existed on the planet, right, and so it's like it's not just micro dosing to like uplift your mood.

Speaker 2: 1:12:26

Micro dosing can bring up incredible trauma that people have suffered from and if you haven't really worked on your trauma and gotten it to a good place, it can trigger your trauma. And then both of you are sitting there together triggered and what is that Right? And and that's the thing is like I hope people understand this and hear this message and take it seriously, rather than just like poking and hoping kind of, because I hear, I hear really bad stories that make my skin crawl and I'm just like you're ruining it for everyone. You're doing the human thing and you're you're, you're going to mess it all up for the people that could really benefit from this.

Speaker 3: 1:13:08

I see that happening. It's it's not just in this like it's. It's happening like the whole commercialization of it, the whole, like the way that it's being monetized. It's a little bit disturbing, but there's this push and pull between, like, making it clinical and keeping it sacred, and it's it's. You can feel it when you're in this space and it's very hard because you're like. But I see both sides and I see how some people trust medicine more than they trust nature and they deserve to have access to so. But it's just, it's a hard conversation to have and it's not black and white. So I think that that's incredibly important have, have reverence over yourself and make sure that you trust what you're doing, and there has to be some ownership in your like role. That sounds terrible, but, like you're accountable, you have to be held accountable for the decisions that you make to, so just know what you're getting yourself into.

Speaker 3: 1:14:06

Well, yeah, you have to you have to advocate for yourself and that to advocate for yourself for sure. Yeah, okay. I just want to thank you so much for giving us another chunk of your time. It worked out this time. I love talking to you and you're such a sweet soul Like I don't know how anybody could like, and just fascinating.

Speaker 1: 1:14:29

Yes, like I felt like I felt like I really I don't know resonated with you, learned a lot, and it was just very enlightening.

Speaker 3: 1:14:38

And we're so excited to meet you in October.

Speaker 1: 1:14:42

So fucking so fucking pumped.

Speaker 2: 1:14:46

Thank you guys for everything that you're doing truly, because I've talked to some of the people that you've gotten them interested in this and it's it's people like you that are really giving the face to the possibilities, and that's scary. So I just want to honor you guys for what you're doing and doing a beautiful job. I love your podcast, I love your social media, I love your merch. I love your faces. Thank you for having me on and I can't wait to see you guys in October too.

Speaker 3: 1:15:16

Thank you so much. I love you guys.