See You On The Other Side

48 | Let's Talk About Sex...Again...And Explore the Role of MDMA in Healing Relationships

May 29, 2023 Leah & Christine Season 2 Episode 48
See You On The Other Side
48 | Let's Talk About Sex...Again...And Explore the Role of MDMA in Healing Relationships
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Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

Welcome to another 'Integration Conversation!'  A  series where we discuss previously released episodes with guests, and answer any questions you guys might have.  Sometimes we get out of these interviews and sit and chat about how mind blowing it was, or what we learned.  And we decided to include you all in on the conversation!

In this weeks episode we chat about previously released Episode 45.  Sex When You Don't Feel Like it with Cyndi Darnell. We dive a little further into our personal experiences with sex, from Leah's religious trauma and body shame to Christine's more open approach to discussing sex and learning to embrace vulnerability.

We also tackle the controversial topic of MDMA and its impact on healing, specifically with relationships and sex. MDMA can be a powerful tool in couples therapy and breaking down barriers around intimacy when used intentionally. We share our experiences with the drug, debunk misconceptions, and discuss the potential dangers associated with recreational use. 

Lastly, we touch upon the importance of self-love, humor, and embracing diversity in relationships. Healing from religious trauma and sexual shame is an ongoing process that requires curiosity and compassion. Join us as we navigate this complex world and reveal how embracing our unique journeys leads to deeper connections and more fulfilling relationships.

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Speaker 1:

Yo, yo yo. What's up, what's up. Hi Hi Leah, what are we talking about today?

Speaker 2:

So we've talked a lot about this because the episode that dropped last week was about sex. No, I'm not going to say last week, because by the time this airs it won't be, last week With Cindy Darnell, who is a sex coach.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. So if you haven't listened to that episode, i highly recommend it. It's episode 45, sex When You Don't Feel Like It.

Speaker 2:

I highly highly recommend it, although, with what we're doing today, it's not a necessary listen to that first and then come here, but it's still a fucking good listen. Yeah, what was our takeaway from that episode that we discovered after we recorded it?

Speaker 1:

Oh shit.

Speaker 2:

Can I tell you what mine was? Yeah, sure That I took over that episode, ha ha, ha, hee, hee, hee, hee. And when we talked about this, it made sense.

Speaker 1:

So what's hilarious is, after we recorded it, you were like Christine, you didn't talk, and I'm like yeah, bitch, i didn't get the chance, you didn't let me talk, but that was your episode. Well, which is okay because I think, yeah, i think it's okay though.

Speaker 2:

Okay, let's go into it. I feel like a lot of times when we have people on it stuff that I'm comfortable with and it's stuff that I'm already knowledgeable in, this was like you could even like. I am like cringing while I'm editing it at the amount of times I giggled Like a fucking schoolgirl talking about sex. That was sex therapy for you. That was a great therapy for me because that is not my jam and not saying that sex is not my jam. But we have had several conversations since then about how uncomfortable it is to talk about sex for me.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

For several reasons.

Speaker 1:

And I don't have that discomfort.

Speaker 2:

No, i'll talk about it. Oh, you will talk about it all day And I'm like sitting here like Hee, hee, hee, hee, she said suckin' on her toes, like I mean I did feel weird because in the sense, i do talk about it, but I'm having private conversations with people.

Speaker 1:

It is a little uncomfortable for me to talk about it so publicly with someone on the platform that we have. Yeah, but you have religious trauma, so much religious trauma, and there's a lot of guilt and shame that you have surrounding sex, where I don't necessarily have that. I didn't have those conversations as a child. Yeah, i wish I would have had them And I learned the hard way with a lot of things in regards to sex. You know bad relationships and things like that, but you have that was. that was more.

Speaker 2:

It was like there are layers and layers and layers of like unlearning for me And I'm still in the process of like unlearning a lot of these things, because the shame and the guilt wasn't just around sex, but there was a lot of shame around my body.

Speaker 1:

And can you elaborate on that?

Speaker 2:

I'm from a family where all the females are thick, sick, with three C's, so I developed large boobs at a very early age And you got that ass too And I got a booty. And when I was, you know, in high school, like that was like very sexualized And my mom didn't like me to wear anything that would show cleavage or it was too tight And I get that. But the thing with like that growing up was, unless I'm wearing a Moo Moo, anything I wear is going to show that I have bigger boobs.

Speaker 1:

And I have bigger boobs too, and I have always felt that. And what's interesting is, most people are surprised that I have big boobs because for a lot of my life I covered them, i didn't show them off. I was literally about to say that, yeah, whereas I've gotten older, i've been more comfortable showing more skin.

Speaker 2:

I'm still like I wear sports bras every day. So when I talk about getting a breast reduction, people are like why you don't need one. I'm like, girl, they are tamed and stuffed. Oh, i saw, you saw, i used to see them. They are some knockers. They are some big old boobies. So there was a point in my life where I did go through a phase where I was like a bartender and I was sexualized And the more sexy I felt, the more tips I got and I would wear lingerie. Like I literally worked at a bar where that was our uniform. So like I didn't like just go to show up at work in lingerie. Literally that was our uniform And I embraced it. And then I had kids and then I started feeling guilty and shameful again. But there's also like behind that shame, like okay, if I wear a fitted t-shirt and a regular bra, they look giant because my waist is so much smaller than my boobs. So that's why I wear a lot of oversized t-shirts And you know this, like I literally will like live in men's t-shirts because I feel like if it's tight, people look at me. Doesn't that make sense? Wow.

Speaker 1:

And I am so opposite. I love a tight t-shirt. I'm showing these titties off.

Speaker 2:

And I'm not saying that in a bad way- No no. I'm just like very uncomfortable in my skin and it's something that I know that I've got to work through. But also on top of that and I said this in that episode my dad was a sex addict.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

So there were a lot. There was a lot of like not only shame, but just we don't talk about sex, well and I, we don't discuss it. You don't have it Like this is bad and that's bad And you shouldn't even be asking questions Like that was very much my life.

Speaker 1:

Even the other day I was like you know, you don't really talk about your dad very much And the fact that he was a sex addict And we, we talked a little bit more about that, but it's something that you don't necessarily get into, yeah, the other thing I want to say is the conversation with me, you and your husband, jason, can I say it?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, Go for it, okay.

Speaker 1:

Well, we were talking about sex, which that sounds kind of weird, that I was like talking about sex with you and we were Okay. I think that sounds weird because it makes me say after we recorded that episode right, lee and I and then, after we recorded the episode with Cindy Lee and I were having a private conversation about sex and we went upstairs to have lunch and we continued the conversation and we had a conversation with Jason and something that you used to say, yeah, used to Used to Said it like 15 years ago, 17 years ago, when we first started dating.

Speaker 2:

I said it 17 years ago.

Speaker 1:

You don't talk dirty in the bedroom, because that's like a slutty thing to do. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

I don't do that because I'm not a slut.

Speaker 1:

So there was almost like a condemning people 100%, but it's because it's what you got taught Right And I think I do appreciate that you are like talking about that and owning that because you've evolved from that And I think it's okay to change your mind and grow and learn, but it is what was ingrained and conditioned in you.

Speaker 2:

But I've also learned in the past couple of years that by that being my mentality 17 years ago when we first met, that stuck with him. Oh yeah, i did It fucked him up a little bit, you know, yeah. And so I do want to get into like how things are now Right, because I did say in that episode with Cindy, like our sex life now is much better, the quality of, or the quality of our connection is so much better.

Speaker 1:

Why.

Speaker 2:

I think there's a lot of things that went into it, but I would say the thing, and I say this a lot Mushroom saved me, right, mushroom saved me. Mdma saved our marriage, and it happened before he got sober, and maybe we should talk about what MDMA is now.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

For our listeners who don't know.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

And then we'll come back to that Sounds perfect. How do we put a pin in that so we don't get off track? You told note. Okay, you've got this. I took notes today because I want to be like normal and pull it up on my phone, but like my phone is recording. So for those who don't know what MDMA is, we're going to go into it. It's a psychedelic. It's also known as Molly or ecstasy. Those are like those street names or it can be called other things. But have you ever had like someone. Be like Oh, i've never done MDMA, but I've done ecstasy. Yeah. Or Oh, i've only done Molly, i've never done ecstasy And I'm like they're all the same thing. Yeah, i guess I could. Some of them are sometimes like some additives are added to them, but like, essentially, the main component is like it's all MDMA. What does MDMA stand for? You're going to make me say this. I'm going to do it. Okay, you got this. It's three, four. Methylene, dioxin, methamphetamine. Okay, i don't know if the three, four is necessary, but it's like methylene, dioxin, methamphetamine. It was discovered and synthesized in 1912. Love that, okay. So it's not a new drug. It's been around for years. Therapists and psychiatrists started using it in the 70s for because it helped their patients with communication and empathy. I didn't know that It didn't become a party drug until the 80s. That's when it was 1985 when they made it schedule one drug, wow. So this is kind of the same with like psilocybin and. LSD and all of these other drugs were used in therapeutic settings for a reason, for treatments and then somehow, along the way this happens with everything, though with every drug It becomes it gets to a point where it's abused. Right, That's everything. Right, That's fucking everything So like. But schedule one means that there's no medicinal value, which is completely untrue. It also means, if it's a schedule one, it's a highly addictive drug Also not true, Right? Also not true. Why is fucking cigarettes? Why are cigarettes not a schedule one drug? Why is alcohol? Why those? these are things that are physically addictive.

Speaker 1:

Alcohol is an actual poison, literally a toxin. How many people do we know Everyone. I can put fucking money on it. Every single person knows somebody who struggles with alcohol. It could be alcoholism, alcohol use disorder, whatever. We all know someone, literally. And if you don't, you don't know anybody.

Speaker 2:

No, i'm just kidding. If you don't, maybe it's you. Oh shit, yeah. Or maybe you also have an addiction and you don't see that there's a problem in the other person.

Speaker 1:

Well, it just goes back to the education, because how many people drink and abuse alcohol but they're like I'm not an alcoholic, I got a good job, I got my family And I'm like no, but you abuse it, That's fine, Whatever Right, Or with you know, MDMA, with psilocybin, with LSD? there are these judgments on it, but they have, there's no. They have no education besides what got told to them. But it's not factual information.

Speaker 2:

Right, it's just what you've heard.

Speaker 1:

It's just what you've heard, so I think you know again, the important thing when we talk about this stuff is education. Do your own research too. Yeah, there's been a lot of great articles about MDMA recently. Yeah, and MDMA is on track to become legalized before Mushrooms Yeah, okay, mushrooms.

Speaker 2:

Yes, yes, we're doing better at this, we are Okay, go on. So another thing about like I think this is a thing that people have struggled with like technically, anything can be addictive, right.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, you had a shopping addiction.

Speaker 2:

But physically addictive is a very different thing. Physically addictive is your body becomes dependent on it. That's why when people are detoxing from alcohol or heroin they can die. They can literally fucking die Opiates like opioids, because their body is physically addicted to these substances. Right Now, can you get physically addicted to mushrooms or MDMA? No, because you're not going to go through a withdrawal process, your body's not going to shut down when you're not taking these substances. So that's kind of the difference between like addictive and non-addictive. Yeah, but I mean it's the same with fucking shopping. We're working out like physically it's not addictive, it's a mental type thing Like you're using it for something Right, okay, so that's when it became a party drug. This is in the 80s. So you know, i was a wee little, tiny little thing back then.

Speaker 1:

I wasn't born yet.

Speaker 2:

Fuck you, but in 2002, this is going to blow your mind because it came from one of our faves Okay, there were false studies done at Johns Hopkins and released in 2002 about the harmful effects of MDMA. Okay, and can I just say it was by a guy named Dr George Ricard. There's a lot of really negative things about him. He did a lot of things carelessly. However, that was 2002. How many years ago is that?

Speaker 1:

21 years ago. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

The fact that I decided to do that. Not many people have taken away anything other than that study, because that study became so widespread. Oprah did an episode on it, motherfucker, and there's something to that too. Okay, oprah did an episode on the harmful effects of MDMA. Had someone come on they showed these brain scans that showed that there were holes in her brain.

Speaker 1:

Oh, my God.

Speaker 2:

And after it aired like she was supposed to do a. Here are the benefits and here are the harmful side effects. They did the harmful one first and everybody came after her. That's false. That's not true. Those aren't holes in the brain. That's showing serotonin depletion. It's not holes. It's not physically possible for someone to have that many holes in their brain. They would not be walking, standing, talking alive. So she recoiled, never did the positive episode and just left that out there. So if you were watching Oprah in the 90s, like in saw this like, you're like yeah, there were no benefits. Look at those holes in the brain.

Speaker 1:

Holy fuck.

Speaker 2:

But I want to tell you why this was false, because they did correct it. Johns Hopkins and this study did come around and correct it, but that's not what people heard, that wasn't nationwide news, that wasn't widespread and talked about. But I want you to tell us what the study was and what they did back in 2002.

Speaker 1:

So the team found that three consecutive doses of ecstasy MDMA given to squirrel monkeys and baboons caused profound damage to dopamine producing neurons in their brains. These are the neurons lost in Parkinson's disease. The animals were injected with MDMA at three hour intervals to mimic the way humans take the drug at all night raves. Two of the 10 died within hours after developing hypothermia. But the group issued a retraction saying they discovered that all but one of the animals received amphetamines instead of intended MDMA. Motherfucker Methamphetamine, also known as speed, would have been expected to produce these results. These, they say okay what the fuck?

Speaker 2:

Let me break that down a little bit, Okay dumb it down for us. Let me dumb it down for you. So they did these studies with these monkeys and administered what they thought was MDMA, and it wasn't even fucking because it was labeled Methamphetamine Oh my God which is a very different drug than MDMA But the chemical components, because it's methyl thylene dioxymethamphetamine and not methamphetamine. Now let me tell you why that's so dangerous. A typical dose of MDMA is between 80 and 120 milligrams. Okay, so between 80 to 120 milligrams. They overdosed them. They were giving these monkeys 80 to 100 milligrams of meth every three hours, And a typical dose of meth is like five to 10 milligrams, Oh, like maybe 30 for high doses. So they were like killing these monkeys with fucking meth.

Speaker 1:

The way you just mic dropped on all these fucking listeners right now and myself, but that's the thing that unless you go down these rabbit holes, you're not gonna know these things.

Speaker 2:

Like, and the propaganda is fucking real man. Like, even after Jason and I like started using MDMA with intention, he's still like I don't wanna do too much though, because it puts holes in your brain. I'm like, no, it doesn't Stop saying that. And he's like, yes, it does. Look at all these articles. And I like he shows me the articles And I'm like these are all sourced before the year 2000. Like, look at all the studies. Now, right, and he still didn't believe me until Andrew Huberman came on and did an episode about how MDMA is not a neurotoxin, it doesn't put holes in your brain, and he comes to me like it's new information. I'm like, yeah, i've been telling you that for years, but okay, He was literally doing cocaine.

Speaker 1:

I'm just gonna throw that out there. Even our psychiatrist said this to him. He was just like hold on, Just wanna throw that out there.

Speaker 2:

You're afraid to do too much MDMA because twice a year is too much for you, when in college you did it every weekend, and you also are addicted to cocaine and alcohol.

Speaker 1:

And he's like yes.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I know it doesn't make sense, but yeah and I'm like, make it make sense, You also smoke cigarettes. Make it make sense.

Speaker 1:

Okay.

Speaker 2:

Okay, So MDMA.

Speaker 1:

Hell of a drug. No, just kidding.

Speaker 2:

It's not gonna fucking kill you. But also with everything that we have said, anything can be used with recreational use and not intentional use. Anything can be overused. I could not imagine doing it, doing it as like a responsible adult. No, now, and the way that it works. I never was that like rave party scene. I never did MDMA recreationally ever, even in college. Like never did it, neither did I ever, i never did anything. But I think a lot of people did that, and so that is how it became like this party drug All right, pin, take the pin out. Okay, how MDMA saved my marriage.

Speaker 1:

There we go.

Speaker 2:

Before my husband got sober, i had said something about like I'm not happy, i want a divorce, da-da-da-da. And he was like, give me six months, i'll make it right. I'm like, okay, you get six months. At the end of the six months, i'm like still not happy, my needs still aren't being met. He did a last resort, had like Googled something about MDMA for couples, sent me the link. I don't know if I know this, i don't think you do. Okay, well, let's go go on, girl, because this wasn't my idea, which is shocking. I love that, but this is after mushrooms for me. Okay, so I was open to it, because before I was like I'm not doing drugs, but he sends me this article that's like MDMA for couples. I read the article and I'm like, yeah, i'd try that. And he was like, okay, cause I got some. Ooh, i was like, oh, okay, so we did this one night And I will say, before we did it, i read a little bit about it And some of the things that it was saying is like you know how it helps people get past resentments. It helps you find the love and your relationship, like everything that piles up on top of the reason that you fell in love with this person sits on top of the love. Does that make sense? Yeah, totally. And then you do MDMA together and all that shit goes away And it's nothing but love, and the physical part of it is just a bonus for us. So that night we had like fucking amazing sex, because everything on MDMA feels amazing. You're like, oh my God, like touch my hair, like touch my teeth, like no, but everything. You know what I'm saying. I know, but you do need to work on your sex talk.

Speaker 1:

I'm just kidding, that's me.

Speaker 2:

That's me. I'm talking dirty. Everything feels so good that, like everything feels sexual, yes. However, we had some really good conversations that night about why we loved each other and why we wanted to stick around and try to make this work, and the things that we loved about each other, and we had conversations that were normally difficult to have, because your guard is down and you're open to hearing things and you're not defensive and your ego is out of the way. I was just gonna say your ego kind of gets out of it Yeah because I feel like in a normal conversation, totally a hundred percent sober And we still struggle with this. Because I feel like everybody does. If I came to you and I was like I don't feel loved and appreciated when you do A, b and C, and your immediate reaction is why is that what I meant to do? That's not how I meant that On MDMA. If I come to you and I say that you're gonna be like I understand how you could feel that way And I wanna do better. Do you feel like that?

Speaker 1:

Totally.

Speaker 2:

So that was like the first time we did it, and the benefits of that lasted for a very long time.

Speaker 1:

So let me ask this Yeah, doing MDMA for the first time, what did you realize that you were missing in your physical intimacy with Jason?

Speaker 2:

An emotional connection.

Speaker 1:

Ooh, okay.

Speaker 2:

And this is again before he was ever sober. So that emotional connection was huge. Yeah, because I'm like okay, it's there, right, like this is real, it's still in there somewhere, but we both have a lot of resentments.

Speaker 1:

Towards each other.

Speaker 2:

Towards each other and anger and hurt and pain, but I could feel that there was something deeper still there. So could he, for months after this, like we were like in a really fucking good place, even though the drinking was still a thing, until we got to a point where the drinking came back heavy and strong?

Speaker 1:

Okay, so you did this before he got sober Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Okay. So after he got sober, it was something that our psychiatrist recommended we do more often And it was like, not like he wasn't, like you guys should do this, like he was just like yeah, i don't see why you wouldn't do that more.

Speaker 1:

And when we say more okay, Cause that could be like, so we do it every week Every weekend, every weekend.

Speaker 2:

No.

Speaker 1:

That's like max every three months I would say max.

Speaker 2:

We were like every six months, twice a year. I like had it in my list of like things that I wanted in our relationship after, like he got sober And it was like I want to do MDMA for your birthday once a year and my birthday once a year. Twice a year I'm going to be honest, i'm a three-monther. Well, now that he's like at first he was like yeah, that's still too much. I don't know if I, i don't know if I trust that like my brain will be okay after that And I'm like it's fine. So I guess I should also say like the side effects of doing MDMA is the serotonin depletion And you do feel extremely low the next day.

Speaker 1:

And I think it depends on the person. For myself, I would compare it to feeling hungover but not feeling like shit.

Speaker 2:

Not physically hungover.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, like the feeling when I'm hungover, when I just like I'm just kind of like tired and run down. it's kind of like that 100%. And that's about it. But I don't feel like where it's like hungover, where I'm like, oh man, i feel sick, i feel like shit.

Speaker 2:

It's more just like I have, like a lot I have low energy And you don't want to do anything the next day.

Speaker 1:

So now we like plan ahead.

Speaker 2:

Like don't have anything planned the next day, just have it like a stay at home, lazy Sunday, whatever, nothing difficult on your plate, no homework or work assignments or anything that like has a deadline, because you want to take that next day to relax. And then what you started doing was the 5-HTP, which helps to boost those levels back up.

Speaker 1:

Right, so you can. 5-HTP you can get it at Walgreens, kroger, whatever grocery store, pharmacy. You can get it online on Amazon. 5-HTP But take it. I take it 24 hours after I've taken MDMA, so like a full 24 hours after, don't take it like right away the next morning.

Speaker 2:

Oh, i didn't know that. Yeah, oh well, shit, but it's never gotten me into a place where I'm like this fucking sucks, like I don't like this feeling. Like it's nothing like that like physically hungover, I'm never doing this again type feeling. It's just a maybe we shouldn't have planned a day at the water park with the kids the next day type situation. So where we are now and we do probably do like still every six months, I'm trying to get that up a little bit because what it does for me now, the physical part, is great, but there's such an emotional connection that we can sit down and have these conversations with the perfect amount of safety from both of us. So that's how it helps save my marriage.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I love that. For me it's not as much of the physical part The first time I did MDMA, So it lasts for about six hours, I would say. Okay, yeah yeah, I would say yeah, six hours.

Speaker 2:

I feel like the peak of it is like around three hours, but then it's like the come up and the come down.

Speaker 1:

So yeah, totally. The first time we did MDMA I talked the whole goddamn time Like I don't even remember if I had the intention of like having sexy time. But the second, it takes about 45 minutes for you to feel it. The second I felt it I could not shut up And I kept talking about my childhood, which is not sexy.

Speaker 2:

Not funny Not funny, not sexy either.

Speaker 1:

It's kind of funny.

Speaker 2:

So you're probably like we're going to do this, We're going to have like the best sex of our lives.

Speaker 1:

And I'm like this happened when I was five, no, but when I was, literally. But the interesting thing about that is, you know, i am somebody who we've talked about this. I ask a lot. I ask other people all about themselves, yes, and sometimes I think it's a deflection to not talk about myself and go there. So with MDMA I went right there.

Speaker 2:

I wasn't asking Tony questions, i was just talking to just like was he asking you questions, or it was just kind of like blurring out.

Speaker 1:

He was just listening and MDMA and talking. This is why it's so great with couples, because for me, it was a way for me to talk about my past and to talk about my trauma and things that happened to me in my childhood that were really, really painful. And as I'm sharing it, i'm not like I'm crying, like I have tears streaming down my face, but I'm not upset. I'm not like, oh my God, this happened to me and then this and this is how it made me feel. It's like a release, like I'm talking about it, like I'm talking to you right now, but I just have tears streaming down my face and I just keep going. And it's almost like it was for me word vomit. I could not stop talking about it and I wanted to talk about it because it wasn't painful And I and Tony wanted to listen because he wants to know like, oh, that happened to her, that makes sense on why now she does this and this and this, and this is why that that was probably such a trigger for her when we had this argument or whatever, and it it was such a connection between the both of us because it's like he he understood me so much better and I was able to let it out I just had this realization as you're saying this, like our needs were very different, because yours wasn't like the physical, it was more of the emotional and mine was both. but like I needed the emotional connection and also I have a very hard time being physically intimate and you don't know We, we, we really like we have a solid relationship in that way And we've had, you know, rough patches and shit like that But who doesn't? But like we've really worked hard on that part and I'm very happy with that part. So it's MDMA. Yes, that the physical stuff is great, but for me my favorite part is the emotional. Before my large journey with mushrooms, i was very in my masculine. I was very I struggled with men. I struggled to get vulnerable with men. There was this like rigidity to me, like fuck you And this is my opinion and very crass, where MDMA took all of that away and I felt just safe and I felt like I could talk about things and I felt like he was listening to me and I felt like I could share this and share it with a lot of love and receive a lot of love back Me. How I was before was just me protecting myself and not wanting to go in to tap into that part because I didn't feel safe. Where with MDMA, i felt safe to share it And that is huge.

Speaker 2:

This is interesting because it's like you know, when we're talking about, like how MDMA helps couples and there are therapists who utilize this drug you're not in the room sitting on a couch like talking about sex, right Like this is like doing it in like a therapeutic setting is going to be very, very different, and they don't just work with couples, it works with people, yeah, solo too, because it puts you in this place of being able to be vulnerable and feeling safe being vulnerable.

Speaker 1:

Which let me backtrack, if you guys have, if the listeners have watched how to change your mind on. Netflix. It's a docu series and one of the episodes is just about MDMA and it is used as a treatment for PTSD And so a military veteran you know was on the docu series and was talking about you know all of his trauma from being in the military and being able to be on MDMA and then talk about the things that he went through. It takes the pain out of it, yeah, but you're still able to talk about it because in a release right, because in a sober state, you may share something, but you're not going to go deep into the depths of, maybe, what you went through because it's painful, right? You don't want to go there, right? So that's why I was able to talk about my childhood for six hours and it not be, you know, painful. Yes, there were tears streaming down my face, but it was necessary for me to get it out because I've kept that in for so long, can?

Speaker 2:

I also say that I feel like the first time we did it, where it was like more of the talking, i kept apologizing for what I don't want to say. It wasn't the first time we did it. The first time was a lot of physical and a little bit emotional. The second time we did it it was a lot of emotions, very little physical, and I kept apologizing because I feel like he was excited to get what he got. That first time I think I apologized a lot too. Yeah, like I'm sorry, like I'm just not feeling, like I just want to. And he was like no, it's okay, like I'm good, like he kept saying that and I kept apologizing. And it was because I don't think I realized how beneficial the emotional part of it was To me. I was like, oh, we're going to have like really good sex, and he's excited about the really good sex. Like no, like it was what I needed most in that one. And I remember even saying the next day like I'm really sorry. And he's like why are you sorry? Like it was perfect, like it was great. So I feel like you're sitting here saying that you were crying to Tony for six hours. He probably wasn't disappointed.

Speaker 1:

Well, what's funny is you saying that I remember like us sitting on the bed and maybe like I'm sorry, like I just keep talking, i don't know why I just like can't stop talking, and he was literally like laying on his side, like with his head in his hands, and he's like no, i love it.

Speaker 2:

Like David Hasselhoff. I'm like imagining David Hasselhoff right now. Cause I'm pretty sure, like we're, not wearing clothes, but that that, to me, that feeling is love.

Speaker 1:

Right, because we. That's the other thing with MDMA. I am so weird about eye contact. Oh, Like I do not with men. Oh, okay With men.

Speaker 2:

But you're saying that as you're looking me in the eyeball. I know, i know, i don't think I've ever noticed that.

Speaker 1:

No with men, Okay In an intimate situations. So I don't like to look at people in their eyes during that when sexy time is happening, cause I'm like, oh God, don't look at me, that's weird. I feel uncomfortable where, when you do MDMA, you're like staring into that person's fucking soul, literally. So I was like you know, staring into his eyes and being like, yeah, so this happened when I was seven and it really sucked, and blah, blah, blah And he's just like sitting there and he's like, oh, my gosh, listening. But also, while we're talking, we're holding hands. Yes, he's rubbing my back, he's rubbing my arms, he's like telling me everything's going to be okay. That feeling And it's the fucking best. It feels unconditional, it feel there is so much love. You feel so much love. You are able to talk about really difficult things and put the egos aside and just hear each other and love each other.

Speaker 2:

So you just reminded me of something. It's also like it was nicknamed like the love drug. It is such a love drug, the love drug. There was something he said the first time. We did it, and again I'm going to say again this is like pre sober, jason, but we were really struggling because I was like we are so different, why are we together? Why did you stay with me if I wasn't the type of person that you want to? you know, it was not on MDMA, this is like pre MDMA. When we were on it. He said something similar to like you know, everybody loves you, everybody's drawn to you, and you asked me why I was with you in the first place, and he was like I couldn't explain it, but there was something about you that drew me to you. And he was like and now I see it. And he was like there's this light about you And I feel lucky that you picked me. And then, of course, i start crying and I'm like well, i feel lucky that you picked me. Of course I cried, but that type of stuff, like you know what we do now, though, and we I have like the skin deep cards, i have like the relationship when, like I love it because we'll go between physical emotional, physical emotional, like lay there, you know, staring up at the ceiling, on the star, the star lights, and then we'll like I'll ask a question, because I do feel like intimate questions for him are really hard. Oh, I'm sure, like putting him on the spot, with him being on the spectrum. Yeah, like when we interviewed him and you asked him like what you know, he was like oh, don't do that to me, like it wasn't because he like didn't have an answer, but he like he doesn't do well with like on the spot questions. Yeah, and you know how females be like would you love me if I was a worm.

Speaker 1:

Okay, so lesson next time I interview him, i'm going to make him take MDMA, oh shit. And then I'm going to ask him all the questions.

Speaker 2:

Oh that, I don't know how that would go.

Speaker 1:

Well, and then I'm going to leave, because I'm going to be like you and Leah got some stuff to do and I'm going to go on out of here And I'm going to be like I'm going to be out Peace, bye.

Speaker 2:

But that's the thing. Like it all depends on, like the set in the setting. I can't imagine what this would be like in a club type setting or like a dancing situation. I want to do that, i'm sorry.

Speaker 1:

I do.

Speaker 2:

No, i do too. Okay, good, we're going to do it. Oh, i know That's on our bucket list. Yes, it is Because when he had never done MDMA solo with one person, he always did it like at raves and clubs. Did you know there used to be a club here in Louisville called Club X? I've heard that They literally didn't even sell alcohol. So you just went there and did drugs, that's it no-transcript And there were drugs everywhere and it was after out like it would be open after the bars closed because they didn't sell alcohol and they were allowed to be. So that's where he would go And it's like pump music, like EDM music and like dancing. Sounds like a good time, right. But I was like so it was interesting having this experience with him and him I'm like is this what it always feels? He's like no, when I'm at a club, i don't want to be like it's very different. I'm sure the set and the setting. I'm not sure I am 100% positive. The set and the setting matter in this.

Speaker 1:

They matter with all of it. I think, with anything you do, whether it be with a psychedelic or not, your intention matters 100%, because and we can go into this later OK, in regards to physical intimacy, cannabis is where it's at for me. Oh, so, in regards to physical and emotional, mdma is where it's at. But I would say, for me, MDMA is more of the emotional connection. The physical intimacy is just the cherry on top Shit. But so we're all different. Yeah, right, yeah. But Tony did a similar thing where he was able. He struggles with words like I feel like every other fucking straight man With MDMA. He was saying all of the reasons, like why it was me, like why I was the one, how he knew what I bring to his life, what I add to his life, why he loves me so much. So imagine getting five, six hours of this with your partner. And this is why MDMA is going to revolutionize couples therapy, when done correctly. Oh, my god. Yeah, because you can't I don't want to say can't it is harder to get to that level in sober states. Yeah, because our ego gets in the way. Yeah, you know biases, whatever, where it takes all of that out. So you know? same thing with cannabis. Yeah, people can use it to escape. I use it for sex.

Speaker 2:

So I will say, the last time we did this, mdma, mm-hmm. Ok, you know about it, i'm sure I do, you absolutely do, because it was after we recorded this Cindy episode and we knew we were doing it that night. Yeah, so before we did it, i started bringing up sex and talking about it in the way that Cindy said is necessary. You know, get these uncomfortable conversations out of the way, and they are uncomfortable, especially when you don't have those conversations often, oh sure, or you know, i do want to say in backtrack in the episode she was talking about, like, talking about it with your friends, and I think she said something similar to this, but like it also matters what your friends believe, because if you are like in a group of guys sitting on the fireplace talking about women and objectifying them, that is not talking about sex. Can I also?

Speaker 1:

add to that. Yeah, men who are like that and who objectify women or they don't treat women with respect and they sexualize women and think that if a woman posts something they can say or talk about or however they want, i'm just going to say this Y'all don't probably know where the fuck a clit is. Ok. So it is not just about quantity and how you talk about like oh yeah, i'm going to bang her. You're not doing it right. It's not a flex, it's actually super fucking embarrassing. And be better. Be better.

Speaker 2:

Thank you for that. You're welcome. Fucking A. So before we took the medicine that's what we're going to call it I started having these conversations with them about how my religious trauma has affected my sexuality in our relationship and what I would like to happen in the future and how I need his help in facilitating these things. You know, yeah, he starts shutting down, getting emotional, yeah, and I'm like what's wrong. And he's like I just I don't want to talk about this right now And I'm like I'm not saying you're doing anything wrong.

Speaker 1:

He's just like. I just don't want to talk about this.

Speaker 2:

Like this is ruining the mood for me And I was like, oh my god. I don't think I realized how difficult talking about sex was.

Speaker 1:

I really don't. I think it's difficult for men and women because a lot of times, men talking about sex, they're masking it by just objectifying women. Yeah, And I'm like get vulnerable with it.

Speaker 2:

Well, and the way he was getting uncomfortable about it made me start retracting, sure, and shutting down And like OK, all right, we'll talk about it. Like sorry, i didn't mean to like upset you, i just thought I was trying to have a conversation.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Two hours later, mdma We're on MDMA And talking about the fucking sex. No one's shutting down. Both of us are being heard and understood And it wasn't like a defensive like conversation like it was before. It was like I can understand that I don't say those things enough to you and I really should because I feel them. I just don't say them enough And I'm sorry I don't say them enough.

Speaker 1:

So how do we get him to say I'm sober.

Speaker 2:

We're working on that, ok. All right, we're working on that OK.

Speaker 1:

I didn't know if you guys talked about that while on MDMA, because that'd be a good time to bring it up.

Speaker 2:

We had a lot of conversations about it, so it's just something that's like coming.

Speaker 1:

So then let me ask you this Yeah, what are things when you're not using the medicine that you do to help with your religious trauma and the shame that you feel around sex?

Speaker 2:

I feel like that's still a work in progress. One of the ways that I feel like I am doing that is through the somatic movement that we do The women's embodiment circles, that we do So for those that don't know this women embodiment circle that we go to sometimes when we can.

Speaker 1:

It's a group of women that get together And Lindsay, the leader in this. She plays songs and we are able to dance And a song could be like something about your inner child and channeling that and dancing like a kid, or it could be something of finding your sensual side and dancing sexily. But there's not like you don't get to do that at a bar, because usually at a bar You're getting stared at. You're getting stared at and objectified by creepy ass men, where this is a safe space for women to just tap into those parts of themselves and not feel like they have to be performative or they have to worry about being looked at.

Speaker 2:

Ok, but we've done two of these now, and after the first one I am shocked that I went back for the second one. But I told you I was like that felt good. I'm still uncomfortable, which is OK, but there is something good that comes out of feeling uncomfortable if you sit with it, sure. So now I'm like I need to do that more because this is definitely a practice of loving my body and the way that it moves. Because I wasn't allowed to dance, wasn't allowed to watch MTV My mom called it gyrating, so there was a lot of shame around that. Like dancing at all, it's like some hairspray shit. I've never seen that movie. Like they can't.

Speaker 1:

Wait, am I grease? No, I'm no. footloose, footloose.

Speaker 2:

Footloose Grease. Footloose Kevin Bacon.

Speaker 1:

Ok, I know what you're talking about.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it was very much like that Yes, we don't dance, we don't show skin, blah, blah, blah. Anyway, i do want to talk about how I dance, though, because you guys were like Can we talk about? the difference? Yes, because even though what you saw was funny, it is funny, it's funny. It's still more than I did the first time. Well, and only going to keep getting better.

Speaker 1:

Only I can make fun of you or someone who knows you really well.

Speaker 2:

If someone else made fun of you, I would never dance again.

Speaker 1:

Well, i'd be like fuck you. You apologize right now, but it's like a sibling thing, like I can joke around with you, but if anybody else fucks with you they're dead. Yes, ok, so.

Speaker 2:

I mean, I look over and you're like you love a good hair, swing Bitch, I have long hair.

Speaker 1:

You love a good hair swing? Hell, yeah, I do.

Speaker 2:

I was about ready to get on all fours and start like, oh, you're like Cat Cowan, and like you're like, oh yeah, i can't even do it Like body rolls And like you were very, you're very, sensual. You're very in tune with your like sexual side.

Speaker 1:

And you know what's weird? I don't know where that came from, i really don't, but maybe just learning to not give a fuck. I am very confident with my body And I do have times where I don't feel confident, yeah, but for the most part I'm pretty confident with my body.

Speaker 2:

I'm pretty confident with that sexual Sensuality and sexuality.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, And as I've gotten older, I've gotten even more comfortable and confident. So pretty soon I'm like five years from now I'm just going to be walking around naked.

Speaker 2:

You're going to be like the baddie, grandma, i am, i am, i'm a tits out. I thought I was like in my head, because I, you know, i try to keep my eyes closed because if I see someone looking at me I will shut the fuck down. So like they're like half open, half closed, but like just so I know where I'm going and so I don't run into somebody.

Speaker 1:

And what's funny is we're in a circle, yeah, and you're always next to me And I'm always up in the circle and you're always back, yeah.

Speaker 2:

Like I'm a back of the class kind of girl.

Speaker 1:

You are And I'm like I'll bring you to the front, bring you to the front. But I would randomly look back at you And Leah would be like rocking side to side with her hands in the air, like she's doing like worship, and oftentimes she was crying God, love you. Because it hurts, i know, but I couldn't help but laugh because even take out the dancing, take out the sexual stuff You just are a crier. I am, i thought I was a crier until I met you and you put my ass to the ground like My ass is grass in regards to crying compared to you, and I always know when you're gonna do it, cuz you do this like Swallow thing but, i, would. I would look back and I'm like She's crying again. She's crying and I'm here whipping my hair and twerking my ass and she's crying. And it was one of those things where I really felt for you, like felt a lot of like empathy, that like It is such a struggle and it shouldn't even have to be in the first place, like there is a Really deep compassion for that little kid who grew up in that very unfair environment. But then there's also a part of me that So Leah is a very unintentionally funny Leah. Just being Leah and just not even trying to make people laugh is funny. They don't see that on the podcast.

Speaker 2:

Hey, you guys don't hear it. You guys don't.

Speaker 1:

I'm a weekend with me. Right, i am very intentionally funny. My goal is to make you laugh, and I'm very sarcastic. I can have a really dry sense of humor and like I'm trying to crack jokes and be the center of attention by by making others laugh, where Leah is Just herself and she makes people laugh on accident.

Speaker 2:

I'm like the Joey and friends. You literally are, babe, you are, and people tell me this all the time. Oh my god, i'm not trying to be funny, i was.

Speaker 1:

I was being serious the more and and There is this goofy side to you. So even sometimes when you do things, try to do things sexy, i'm like, oh my god, i can't help but laugh. Can't help it. It's so funny and I don't know why. But I think that's also a very endearing, charming thing about you.

Speaker 2:

I think Jason and I were talking about that because it's cute, because I was really cute. Do you think I'm funny? and he was like I mean, yeah, but not on purpose. And then I think the funnier thing about it is that, like when I realized that what I said was funny to everybody else, then I can't stop laughing at myself.

Speaker 1:

Oh my god. But I'm like when we so we went to Matt Reif A couple weeks ago if you don't know, he's a comedian. He's really, really Um coming up and he's really popular and tick-tock, and we went to a show and we went with Our other friend, sarah We actually interviewed her, but anyways, like we stayed in a hotel that night and you were just Sarah and I were like peeing our pants, laughing because you were just being you And Every time you did something I'm like you are further proving my point that you are unintentionally funny, because you are just living in being Leah and I can't help but laugh. Like it is like Very entertaining to watch you damn.

Speaker 2:

So I feel like that's a good compliment.

Speaker 1:

It's a very good compliment, but it's in like a She's gonna say something. I'm be like where the fuck did that come from, leah Oh?

Speaker 2:

My God, what? That's how my middle child is. 100% shit that comes out of his mouth. Yeah is so Left field. I think we're like where the fuck I?

Speaker 1:

think, i think Austin is the most like you Really not L.

Speaker 2:

I have always called Austin, like my child, who was born high.

Speaker 1:

I think Austin is the most like you, not L huh, that's funny, i think, the way he questions things.

Speaker 2:

Oh, yeah, no, he's a, he's a. I think he's like either a three five in human design or like a five something He's. He's very much a rabbit hole. Goer wants to know details, wants to know everything, but why, but why, but why?

Speaker 1:

he looks the most like you. I think his kind of just goofy, charming, endearing personality is very similar to yours too, yeah.

Speaker 2:

L is more like the emotional part of me, but sure I can see what you're saying. I'm just not realizing this. Mm-hmm, damn, damn.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, okay, i Mean that's it. That's all I got. So what I'm working on is Is I'm doing my best to like overcome all this, like fucking Trauma. I would love to do like I did a pole dancing class years ago. That was cool, oh.

Speaker 1:

I would love to pull dance. I've won something like that for So long, like I've been asking Tony for probably the last year to put a stripper pole in our house And I know people may judge that I Like the workout and I don't think it's bad that women are sexy and own Their sexiness we did our class Years ago as a bachelorette party, and the girl who owned the studio was like a national competitor for the National Pole Dance Confed Federation.

Speaker 2:

Okay, that's a word. I. There is a thing I didn't know that that was they compete every year, okay, and she was like one of the champions I love that. So she taught us an entire routine and the next day I was like I have a whole new appreciation For what they do.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, this shit is Not easy and it's fucking talented like this, strength and the court. I mean. God bless them. But, like I think it's important to have these conversations about sex, I think it's okay for women to be sexy. I think it's okay for men, you know, to work on being more Emotional and vulnerable. I think it's okay for moms to be sexy.

Speaker 2:

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:

I think it's no matter what size you are, even if you aren't feeling good in your body. I think it's important to learn how to love yourself while also working on yourself. Love yourself where you're at.

Speaker 2:

I Love that.

Speaker 1:

I do too. Love yourself where you're at. Yeah, you can. We all have room for growth and we all have room for improvement, but it's really important to love you where you're at, even if you want to improve We. That's a never-ending thing.

Speaker 2:

So I also want to say this before we close out Okay, um, we are not telling anybody to go do drugs or to do MDMA.

Speaker 1:

I mean, I am no, I'm just.

Speaker 2:

I know we're doing all these thoughts and ideas but we don't mean it.

Speaker 1:

You know about how things speak up, But Uh like we're in the business world and all over the world right now will understand people who are not Unexpected. We need to be on a safepic. This is our center and we need to be aware of it. What do you expect? and effective experience.

Speaker 2:

There you go.

Speaker 1:

And I wanna add too yes, the sexiness is great, but for me, i'm gonna continue working on my safety and letting out emotions and vulnerability You were saying earlier, you were like in your masculine so much and I feel like I was always too far in my feminine.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, we talked about that on MDMA last time too. Yeah, like how I'm so far in my feminine, but when I was like going down the list, i was like but there are things that I'm doing now that are more of the masculine, like defending myself.

Speaker 1:

And I'm doing less in my masculine, more in my feminine.

Speaker 2:

We should do an episode on what that means.

Speaker 1:

I agree Also.

Speaker 2:

Because I used to think that, just like being feminine meant like you're super girly into pink, masculine is your tomboy, not it No?

Speaker 1:

not it No, and we can get into that later. Yeah, What I did wanna say is shoot, I just fucking lost it. Oh, I'm sorry, It's okay. Oh, I know I got it. I've gotten a few comments that people think that we're sisters. I'm like made me laugh, Which is hilarious, cause I'm like different race babe Like different race.

Speaker 2:

Brown Yeah, i'm white and freckly.

Speaker 1:

Which. Thank you. I take that as a compliment because I think you're absolutely beautiful Same. But I like that we are showing our differences and how different we are with our healing, with how we use psychedelics, what works for us And, like I said, you are tapping more into the sexual part with MDMA And for me it's a lot of emotional. So, and I think it's important that we continue to highlight that.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So love that, love that. Different strokes for different folks. I love that too, love it. All right, we will wrap this up And again, if you guys have any questions, reach out to us. Hope you enjoyed this conversation, hope we were a little bit more informative than we usually are Just jump in straight into drugs and not really explaining what they are, and if you think that somebody could benefit from doing this with their partner, send them this episode. Yeah, so lots of stuff out there about this, but especially ours. All right, we will talk to you guys soon. See you on the other side. Bye.

Guilt and Shame around Sex and Sexuality from Religious Trauma
How Sexual and Religious Trauma Shows Up in Relationships
MDMA and Misconceptions
MDMA for Relationships
Having Difficult Conversations About Sex and Intimacy
Process of Unlearning the Shame and Guilt Around Sex
Sexuality, Humor, and Self-Love